Misfiring CVA Percussion Hawken

First time ever shooting this rifle. It is a percussion CVA Hawken which was assembled from a kit. It is a .58 caliber. It shoots great and is very accurate. After five shots without any cleaning it misfired. Using real black powder not the replacement stuff. The percussion cap fired but it did not fire the charge in the barrel. Trying to clean out the nipple and removing the side screw and placing a pipe cleaner in it did not correct the problem.

Removed the nipple and placed a very, very small amount of black powder in the hole and then replaced the nipple. It fired properly but then the next loading did not fire as it should have.

Trying to clear the small holes with a pick did not work.

Is it usual that complete cleaning is needed after shooting 5 loads? Is there a better nipple available which might eliminate this problem?

 

[Grenadier1758]

You should be able to shoot more rounds than five before cleaning is required.

Your CVA Hawken has a firing chamber in the breech. Now you assembled your gun from a kit. Before firing you have to remove all the protective grease from the bore and firing chamber before you go shooting your gun. That protective grease if left in the firing chamber will very quickly build up an obstructive block of fouling and grease that will prevent the flash from the percussion cap getting to the powder charge. Now is the time to really clean your gun to be sure all that assembly grease and recent fouling is removed. I am one of the type that likes to wipe my bore between shots. Be aware that with your CVA breech you need a slightly damp patch that will slide past the fouling going down and will bunch up and drag the fouling out preventing your jag and patch pushing fouling into the breech.

As far as better nipples are concerned, yes there are improved nipples out there. I like the hot shot nipples or other similar stainless steel nipples.

Let us know if you get your gun to shooting reliably.

 

[mooman76]

Give us a step by step how you load. That could be part of the problem.

 

[BrownBear]

A bud of mine has the same rifle in 58 and ran into roughly the same problem. He did two things at the same time that cleared it up, so I don't know if one will work by itself or if you need to do both.

He switched to a hotshot nipple, but he also turned down the jag he uses for swabbing. It goes down the bore easy, but when he pulls it back out the back edges of the patch kinda bind up and drag all the fouling back up and out of the bore. Single pass only for swabbing, then change to a second patch if he feels inspired to swab twice. He swabs after every third shot as a routine now, and I don't recall him having a misfire in the last couple of years.

BTW- He turned down the jag because it was his assessment that the tight patch/jag combo was simply pushing the fouling down into the chamber when he swabbed. I concur with that.

Dunno if he also needed the hotshot nipple, but he's sticking with it. But the tight jag had to go.

 

[Rifleman1776]

He turned down the jag because it was his assessment that the tight patch/jag combo was simply pushing the fouling down into the chamber when he swabbed.

That is a far more common scenario than many are aware of. It is easy to think of the jag as a cleaning tool only when, in fact, if not a proper fit it is more of a gunking up tool.

 

[crockett]

Better nipple would probably help. I think there is a coned breech plug on the CVA guns, or at least some of them, maybe someone else knows for sure. If so, you need a scraper that matches this profile to scrap out residue. I think CVA sells such a scraper.
In swabbing, you can push fouling down the bore and plug up the drum. After swabbing but before pouring in the powder charge, try snapping a cap to blow out any residue. Point the muzzle a few inches from tall grass or soft sand, the blast of the cap should move the grass or dimple the sand- then you know for sure you have a clear passage. You waste a cap but you don't have to worry about a hangfire or misfire.

 

[dave61965]

I picked up a nice .32 cal cva cheap at a show not too long ago, barrel was clean but I couldn't even blow through it with compressed air, after getting the clean out screw out I took some solid wire and flattened it into a spade shape that would just fit into the flash channel and had to dig out what looked like hardened grease to me, then ran a .22 cal cleaning brush down the bore into the small hole in the breech and cleaned it rite up, works fine now, I figure that grease was in there from day one as hard as it was.

 

[nwtradegun]

try a musket cap conversion nipple. they have solved all my problems in the past

 

[ohio ramrod]

The fit between the cleaning jag, cleaning patch, and bore is critical with any form of patent breech. You want a fit such that the cleaning patch will "slide down" the bore then "bunch up" and pull the fouling out. Not push the fouling down ahead of it into the powder chamber. :idunno:

 

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions. I feel certain that the problem is all about fowling accumulating after several firings which in my case was 5.

I have my doubts that the suggestion of perhaps some protective grease being the cause of the problem. I had all the steel parts blued which required complete degreasing.

One fellow asked my procedures on loading. After placing a pre-measured amount of 2F GOEX powder into the barrel. Then the ball is rammed home after first placing a cotton patch which is impregnated with WONDER LUBE over the muzzle, then placing the ball over the patch. Push the ball and patch with a starter then finish with ramming it home with the ramrod.

From the beginning it appeared the problem was all about fowling since placing a small amount of 4F powder into where the nipple goes and then replacing the nipple the rifle fired every time.

I was not aware that there are nipples available which allow for placing some 4F powder in it before placing a cap in the nipple. That seems to be a quick fix for the problem w/o having to stop and clean the rifle after each shot. Please provide either the name of this special nipple and if possible a vendor.

I had considered getting one of those HOT SHOT nipples but am not certain of the thread size. It appears it might be 6 X 1 mm but thought it might not be a metric thread. Does anyone know if it would be a metric thread.

About modifying the jag. Just to be certain is a jag a cork screw type device used to hold cleaning patches? Does the suggestion of modifying it involve twisting it to a smaller size so that the fit down the bore does not push the fowling down the barrel but allows the patch to pass the fowling on the down stroke and then cling to it on the up stroke. Am I reading this correctly.

While talking about cleaning a barrel what have you all found works best? I usually use very hot water in conjunction with a strong laundry detergent such as WISK. First remove the nipple and the small screw next to the nibble. Then place that end in a hot bucket of water. Squirt some WISK down the bore followed by a bore swab which is usually used to clean a shotgun bore. After removing the crud squirt some WD-40 to displace the water followed by running some patches in the bore and then spraying a gun oil into the barrel.

There is a material known as BORE BUTTER. Is that any good or is there something better.

 

[mooman76]

Wonder lube basically is bore butter. Possibly you are using too much or if you swab between shots you could be wetting the swab too much. Only needs to be damp. CVA had a standard thread size. Some places you order from will list it or someone will chime in with the size. The jag is barrel shaped with grooves around it. The screw device you talk of is a patch puller in case you get a patch stuck in the barrel.

 

[Kapow]

Almost certainly a crud build up being pushed into the breach and blocking the flash channel. I have the same trouble with my CVA Mtn rifle. When you clean after the day at the range do it in a bucket of hot soapy water. Remove the barrel and put breech end in water and pump jag up and down so that water gushes in and out of flash channel. Swab between shots at range and a burst from a can of compressed air through nipple will clear crud.

 

[Leatherbark]

If you look at a CVA breech in the flesh you wonder how the heck does 2f powder make under the nipple. The Drum screws into the breechplug and across over to the other side of the barrel. Of course there is a small hole drilled into the drum and where the drum intersects the center of the barrel they have a small hole to let the powder into the drum. Use 3f. Before firing it helps to squirt a little 91% rubbing alcohol into the barrel and take a jag and shove it down to where a mist comes out of the nipple. Bust a cap or two and when you load the 3f black powder raise the weapon and smack the side of the lock with your hand to help the 3f blackpowder get into that little hole and over to under the nipple. Now I know that 3f is probably not the best for a 58 caliber as far as pressure/velocity, but it might prove cleaner burning and thus less gunk

Good luck

Bob

 

[dikman]

If you're talking about using Bore Butter as a protectant in the barrel, forget it. If you spend some time googling the stuff you'll find there are quite a few cases of people ruining barrels (rust) after relying in it.

 

[Zonie]

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions. I feel certain that the problem is all about fowling accumulating after several firings which in my case was 5.

Fouling won't normally build up in the breech unless it was knocked off of the barrel walls by "swabbing" with multiple strokes while cleaning between shots.

I have my doubts that the suggestion of perhaps some protective grease being the cause of the problem. I had all the steel parts blued which required complete degreasing.
You are probably right however, if you poured oil down the bore to protect it and you didn't clean it out before firing the gun, the oil can contaminate the powder that contacts it resulting in the small hole between the breech and the nipple clogging up.

One fellow asked my procedures on loading. After placing a pre-measured amount of 2F GOEX powder into the barrel. Then the ball is rammed home after first placing a cotton patch which is impregnated with WONDER LUBE over the muzzle, then placing the ball over the patch. Push the ball and patch with a starter then finish with ramming it home with the ramrod.

From the beginning it appeared the problem was all about fowling since placing a small amount of 4F powder into where the nipple goes and then replacing the nipple the rifle fired every time.
I agree. If you are leaving the previously fired cap on the nipple or you are leaving the hammer down so it rests on the nipple while you are loading the next shot, the blockage of the nipple hole will prevent the loose powder from being blown back thru the breechplug to end up right below the nipple.

When loading, always make sure the hammer is at half cock and the nipple is free of cap remnants.

I was not aware that there are nipples available which allow for placing some 4F powder in it before placing a cap in the nipple. That seems to be a quick fix for the problem w/o having to stop and clean the rifle after each shot. Please provide either the name of this special nipple and if possible a vendor.
There are no nipples designed for putting 4F powder into them before placing a cap on it. There often is a slightly enlarged hole above the small hole at the bottom of the nipple but it is intended to allow all of the flame from the cap to enter the nipple. It was not designed to serve as a priming location.

I had considered getting one of those HOT SHOT nipples but am not certain of the thread size. It appears it might be 6 X 1 mm but thought it might not be a metric thread. Does anyone know if it would be a metric thread.
If your gun was made in Spain, it probably has a M6X1 thread. Before spending the money for a new nipple, take your existing nipple to a local hardware or auto parts store. They will be able to tell you what the threads are.

About modifying the jag. Just to be certain is a jag a cork screw type device used to hold cleaning patches? Does the suggestion of modifying it involve twisting it to a smaller size so that the fit down the bore does not push the fowling down the barrel but allows the patch to pass the fowling on the down stroke and then cling to it on the up stroke. Am I reading this correctly.
The jag being referred to is not the corkscrew style. It is the common grooved brass jag that was turned down to reduce its size. If the wiping patch being used is thinner than a shooting patch this is usually not necessary.

While talking about cleaning a barrel what have you all found works best? I usually use very hot water in conjunction with a strong laundry detergent such as WISK. First remove the nipple and the small screw next to the nibble. Then place that end in a hot bucket of water. Squirt some WISK down the bore followed by a bore swab which is usually used to clean a shotgun bore. After removing the crud squirt some WD-40 to displace the water followed by running some patches in the bore and then spraying a gun oil into the barrel.
Sounds pretty good to me. Just a suggestion though.
After oiling the bore, store the gun with the muzzle pointing down. That will keep any excess oil from running down into the flame channel hole in the breech where it can pool and cause trouble.

There is a material known as BORE BUTTER. Is that any good or is there something better.

Bore butter is OK for lubing patches. There are about 102347 other lubes that can be made at hole for far less money and will work just as well.

 

[ccmountainman]

I don't know, guess this goes to all.
Have had my CVA Mountain rifle 50 cal since 1978.
I have never had a problem with misfires, except an occasional bad cap.
When you get a used rifle as in anything else used, most times the previous owner had a reason for getting rid of it.
So you always need to look it over good.
Have never needed to add powder to the flash hole in the drum.
But yes over the years if it wasn't thoroughly cleaned fouling residue could of built up in the flash channel and the bottom of the breech.
Then after a few shots more residue builds up and
blocks the flash.
Try a thin stiff wire. like a clothes hanger.
Run it all the way down the barrel. Mark it.
Pull it out and lay along the barrel. Does it go clear to the nipple and slightly past? If not
the chamber area is likely crudded up.
Adding powder to the flash hole and then firing just temporarily blows a hole through the crud.

 

[BrownBear]

Those are good points, and especially with a used rifle having a shady past, I think I can add something worthwhile.

Twice now I've bought used rifles that I soon learned were BAD for misfires. Easy to see why the prior owner was selling them, even if that small detail never appeared in the sales pitch. :rotf:

In both cases I discovered the build-up of rock hard crystaline fouling in the breech. Chunks I got out looked like cold roofing tar, if you can picture that.

One was a barrel with a flat breech face and bolster, and the other a patent breech, so this isn't an indictment of either type. It is most certainly an indictment of prior owners' cleaning methods. This is a guess, but knowing both owners I suspect they were using Pyrodex, but only cleaning the bore while not doing a good job on the breech. That's guesswork, because I've never seen the same with black powder. Not picking on either, because I use both.

Back to the two barrels:

Using a flat breech scraper enthusiastically on the flat breech, I didn't get much fouling at first, but continued to push hard and spin it. Pretty quick I could feel grinding down there and started pulling out those big chunks of "roofing tar." I was amazed how much I got out. Since then I've never had a misfire.

Same story for the patent breech, but in that case I filed a point in a flat breech scraper first and got all sorts of fouling. Round the "corners" on the sides back of the point, and I got more. Thought I was through, but filed the point off a little and got more. Kept messing with the shape of the scraper until I had a custom fit for the patent breech, and all was well. Now I have a breech scraper just for patent breeches. Zero misfires on that particular barrel in the years since I did that hard cleaning.

I think it's a good guess that so much hard fouling had built up in the breeches it was messing with the flame channel and resulting in misfires. Proper cleaning of the breech since then has prevented any reappearance of the hard fouling even with Pyrodex. But I always use the scrapers as part of my cleaning routines in those and all other barrels.

 

[mooman76]

I agree with Brownbear on the proper cleaning. I have quite a few guns with patent breeches and have never had a problem with them when I did my part right. I might also add that I didn't even know what a patient breech was until a few years ago. So when I clean I must be doing something right. I usually use a brush when I clean and get down in the breech area good. I'd try a good cleaning with a brush. Either a smaller bore brush or a well worn one to make sure I got down in the patient breech all the way down. See if you can pull any gunk out.

 

[Billnpatti]

I, too, ran across a gu n with a seriously plugged barrel. It was a very nice early Hatfield and the guy was wanting to sell it and a bunch of accuterments for only $250. I smelled a rat but from teh looks of the gun, I felt that I could resolve any problems. I found that I couldn't get air thgout the nipple into the bore even with an air compressor. The breach was plugged. I ran a range rod down the bore and encountered a hard substance in the breach. The stuff was like concrete. A breach scraper could only scrape loose some small amounts of dust. I finally had to de-breach it. When I did, I saw what looked like a chunk of concrete in the breach area. I ran a range rod down the bore and punched out the light colored gunk. I scrubbed the bore with a brass brush, made sure it was clean as a hound's tooth and replaced the breach. After that, it was a real dandy shooter and looked pretty darned nice, too. I have no idea what the chunk of "concrete" was but suspect it was some sort of residue from one of the substitutes like Pyrodex or Triple 7 that had accumulated from improper cleaning. In the end, I got one heck of a great deal. :grin:

 

[Zonie]

I haven't shot 777 but Pyrodex leaves a dark gray/black fouling so I doubt that that was what caused the concrete like blockage.

Some of those other synthetic powders like Black Canyon, Shockies Gold (misspelling intentional) and other ascorbic acid based propellants are chunky and large and light gray or white.

It could have been one of those.