ML pistol shooting with a champion

[phoenix511]

What do the forum readers think of this?

"If you are building a flintlock pistol or rifle, you should definitely install a touchhole liner."

"For the revolver, you have only two choices ... the ROA and Remington Model 1858."

"Another neat trick I learned about revolvers is to fill the action with a lightweight grease... I don't find any rust and the action is easy moving and crisp."

"All my tests lead me to believe (fillers) ... were just a waste of time... pour in the powder, then with a ball .001 to .002" over cylinder bore diameter, to be seated down on the powder ... then grease the chamber on top of each ball. I find Crisco works fine."

These quotes are from "Muzzle Loading Shooting and Winning with the Champions", published in 1973, Chapter VIII, Pistol and Revolver by Peter D. Allen. According to the NMLRA website, he is a Distinguished Master, and still holds the record for Flintlock 25yds and Revolver timed fire at 25yds, both set in the 1970's

The emphasis here is on match shooting and accuracy, more than historical correctness. Maybe something to learn here?

 

[CaptainKirk]

I think there's a lot of angry spirits walking around with Sam Colt's powder burns on 'em that might have an opinion on that....
Target shooting, maybe. But for bad men, minute of pie-plate was all it took.

 

[arcticap]

I've been impressed by some reports of more consistent velocity resulting from using fillers which can result in better accuracy with various types of pistols.
Crisco does work but I don't how important it is to use that product verses something else.
It's generally a very good idea to listen to folks who have had a great deal of experience and success and to consider what they have to say. But as times change, new products and equipment can introduce a whole new set of data and variables to consider.
Thus some opinions and practices may change over time while others remain the same.

 

[FishDFly]

Touch hole liner, definitely yes.

The ROA is the revolver of choice in line matches. Most of the top shooters are using ROAs which have been reworked and are 36 cal.

The Remington 1858 is the pistol of choice for As Issue Matches.

Lubes, the top shooters use them and make their own. They use some or all of these: Gulf Wax, Bees Wax, mineral oil or Vasoline in varying proportions depending on the ambient temperature. When it's hot, light weight greases can get messy.

Fillers are used by most today, with corn meal or Cream Of Wheat to be the most popular. COW will not compress. Some type of lube after the ball.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I take no strong exception to any of that. I prefer a lubed wad under the ball but have also done OK with just grease or tallow over the ball. I also prefer a larger ball, more like .005" over chamber diameter and the chambers should be reamed to full groove diameter of the bore but the method you quote will work OK if you have a gun with proper dimensions.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

What do the forum readers think of this?

"If you are building a flintlock pistol or rifle, you should definitely install a touchhole liner."

"For the revolver, you have only two choices ... the ROA and Remington Model 1858."

"Another neat trick I learned about revolvers is to fill the action with a lightweight grease... I don't find any rust and the action is easy moving and crisp."

"All my tests lead me to believe (fillers) ... were just a waste of time... pour in the powder, then with a ball .001 to .002" over cylinder bore diameter, to be seated down on the powder ... then grease the chamber on top of each ball. I find Crisco works fine."

These quotes are from "Muzzle Loading Shooting and Winning with the Champions", published in 1973, Chapter VIII, Pistol and Revolver by Peter D. Allen. According to the NMLRA website, he is a Distinguished Master, and still holds the record for Flintlock 25yds and Revolver timed fire at 25yds, both set in the 1970's

The emphasis here is on match shooting and accuracy, more than historical correctness. Maybe something to learn here?

The touchole liner is a good idea.

Since I've won black powder hand gun competitions at all three clubs that I belong to, I guess you could say I've done fairly well. With that in mind, here goes:

I don't own a ROA and probably never will, since they didn't exist back when powder & ball were used for real. I've seen guys show-up to club matches with high-vis front sights on their '58 Remmys, give 'em a half-charge of powder & fill 'em up with cereal :shocked2: and they barely go BANG :shake: turning a MAN-STOPPER into a WIMPY pop gun that couldn't shoot a dressed man at 50 yards. Not exactly my cup of tea :shake: !

I have both Colt & Remington replicas and prefer to use my Walker with a 52 grain rifle charge under a .454 ball. My guns don't eat cereal, just powder & lead, like in the old days! That Walker has hit a set of Scott air tanks at 135 yards several times with lots of witnesses, so that bit about Remmys & ROA's is hogwash :bull: IMHO!

Grease is a good idea on the arbor. So are wonder-wads with an extra amount of bore butter schmered into them then placed underneath the balls. I don't play with crisco or any other slimy thing that interferes with my grip.

I enjoy overcoming the obstacles of the design flaws built into these guns and thus shoot them all out-of-the-box.

I think learning how to shoot correctly is the first step. Then get a hold of a C&B hand gun and you have a whole nuther set of variables to overcome. I see a lot of reenactors trying to do both and failing miserably at it. The basics, the mechanics and the muscle memory all have to come first, then you can pick up a black powder hand gun and understand what you're doing and why the gun is behaving the way it is.

I didn't write what I wrote to be a windbag. Some of what you paraphrased is still correct, other info is slanted towards what was known THEN based upon what was allowed into some matches. Generally I look favorably upon those who try to use these guns as they were intended--MANSTOPPERS!

Maybe I should write a book some day :idunno: :haha: .

Dave
Crazy Old Coot that like full-house loads!

 

[Blizzard of '93]

as for the OP's que lots of what the writer says makes sense.
I don't ever shoot any loads so weak that filler would be required (as dave says) but my '58 and ROA both group tighter with the loads that are not max - those loads tend to sling the slug around some - and I use felt buttons overpowder.
I shoot 90% now Lee mold conical slugs. really - lots of 'smashing power' over the rb's.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

You don't like ROA's because they didn't exist, your gun doesn't eat cereal. But it will eat nonPC wonder wads with bore butter? Just like Col Colt suggested I suppose?

If the idea is to shoot for accuracy, the ROA is probably the way to go, without spending a year's salary for one of the German Rogers and Spencers.

I have traditional muzzleloader pistols, traditional style revolvers and "Buck Rogers" guns as some call them. While I just like to shoot, I have my own pistol range here at the house. I practice with pellet guns in bad weather, and shoot the real ones when possible. I don't use fillers, but also haven't had my guns worked over either. I have a gun with a two oz trigger. I am still trying to learn holding it on target and squeezing.

 

[phoenix511]

Tell me more about the 36 cal.

Allan's writings on revolvers (there is much more material on single shot percussion and flint pistols) deal only with 44 cal, as if nothing else exists. I don't know if good 36 cal replicas were available in that era. I wonder how the 36 cal would do at 50 yds with some wind?

The NMLRA events use stationary targets at a known distance, with a known and generous time allowance for loading, and projectiles need only enough kinetic energy to punch a hole in paper, so the competitor tailors techniques and equipment to meet that challenge. These matches don't have much resemblance to combat shooting, then or now.

I wonder what new 21st century technology has brought since the as-issued revolver, propellant, and projectile are basically unchanged since the 1850's.

The few 36 cal revolvers I've shot were really very pleasant to shoot, stingy with lead and powder, and seemed accurate (although I'm certainly not a good pistol shooter). My assumption was NMLRA revolver shooters used 44 cal, but then I've never asked!

The percussion pistol, flintlock pistol, and percussion revolver rules allow all manner of strange designs and adjustable sights. My interest is in the "as-issued revolver".

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

:thumbsup: Nice job with the conicals & loads! Your harvests are your proof :wink: !

dave

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I use the wonder-wads primarily because I don't wish to play with wet lube to keep the fouling soft or prohibit chain fires. I'm not interested in PC or in becoming a "Gamer" using adjustable sights and cereal-laden wimp loads. All of my bp guns have fixed or primitive sights (rifle, revolvers, shotgun).

A 52 grain load (out of 60 possible) in the Walker is very accurate, as Blizzard noted in his comments about not quite fillin 'em up all of the way with powder.

It's O-K to do what you want in this sport, since you're the only person (meaning myself) that you have to make excuses to when you miss :haha: .

What ever you do that works for you is cool with me! :v

Dave

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I use Blue and Gray Pistol Patch on top the balls in the revolver. Not a lot. It doesn't make near the mess that Crisco or some others make. It is about the consistency of fresh caulking. I have never had it melt. The Ruger is my favorite, but the 36's colt repros are next.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I wonder if Dixon's sells that Blue & Gray "caulk" since I've bought Blue & Gray 11 ga. OS cards for the shotgun :hmm: ?

Always nice to have a back-up or try something new! Thanks!

Dave

 

[FishDFly]

I don’t know a lot about ROAs converted to 36, but I know they have a following. I have seen a couple, but I did not handle them. A man in Ohio or that part of the country does the conversion and his work runs around $500 or so on a ROA which you provide. I do know the he sleeves the cylinder to 36. I am not sure if the barrel is sleeved or replaced. The loading lever is totally re-worked along with a trigger job.

There are quite a few who shoot 36 cal, be it ROA, As Issue, traditional or strange designs and they do well at 50 yards.

I guess what’s new is information, you can go to the Internet to find all the information that you want on pistol shooting, you can find pistol coaches and folks to help with the mental aspect of pistol shooting and winning. Most of the Master’s all shoot pellet pistols and do so each day.

RDE

 

[zimmerstutzen]

The Blue and Gray revolver lube I have is in a very large plastic tube, sort of like toothpaste on steroids. It now comes in a bottle. Not sure how much you get in the bottle. You can find it by a Google search.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Thanks--I'll check it out!

Dave