Ml Shotguns Vs Unmentionables

[Walkabout]

All things being equal, how does a muzzleloading shotgun compare with standard smokeless shot guns in performance? I think it would be interesting to see a side by side comparison.

 

[Dale Lilly]

I don't have a scientific reply... but I have hunted with guys using those other critters and I nearly always had my limit down first. No, I am not a great wing shooter. I just choose to be where the birds are.

 

[SDSmlf]

All things being equal, how does a muzzleloading shotgun compare with standard smokeless shot guns in performance? I think it would be interesting to see a side by side comparison.

What kind of comparisons have you tried or observed?

 

[Walkingeagle]

My experience? Well I shot competitive sporting clays and was nationally ranked in the low double digits before my disease wasted too much muscle to stay competitive. With that said, when I shot a black powder cartridge shotgun event (hammer guns only) at a rondy years back, I was so worried about smashing those floppy, easy clays they were throwing, I would be embarrassed. Almost refused to compete and told folks why I was worried. Turns out I was embarrassed, but only cause I turned in an average score at best. I could not adjust to the much slower speed of the black powder. Perhaps more practice and experience would correct things, dunno?
Its what you’re used to that will be the deciding factor. I do not believe you can effectively flip flop.
Walk

 

[sheriff john]

Cylinder bore is cylinder bore, but imho, that's where side-by-side comparisons end. Sorta like comparing a Model A to a new Corvette. You can only do so much to a Model A Ford, it's never going to be the same as a high-tech, state of the art fiberglass whizzbang. Both will take you down the same gravel road, but, to me the Model A is more fun and a challenge.

Velocity, patterns, etc. can be made similar to a point, but then there's that wonderful, sweet-smelling cloud of white smoke smokeless powder can't duplicate. Not the same.

 

[Brokennock]

Very, very difficult, if not impossible to do an "all things equal," side by side comparison. It would seem to be achievable but little variables can make big differences, especially in smoothbores and shotgun patterns.
2 1/2 drams is 2 1/2 drams, an ounce of shot is and ounce of shot, but, ignition delays (lock time), cartridge containment effecting pressure, length of cartridge, forcing cones, backboring, choke, all these things make differences. Of we say, "oh, I'll just shoot the cartridge out of a test barrel with no forcing cone or choke," well, we've negatively effected the performance of that shot shell, that chamber to forcing cone makes a difference in how the crimp unfolds and shot escapes the shell.
That all makes it seem like the cartridge shotgun has a huge advantage. But, with a muzzleloader you can tailor each loading to each shot. If one spend the time to work on it, I think superior patterns at normal upland distances can be obtained (longer distance turkey and waterfowl patterns are another story).

I don't think a side by side comparisons of the guns is feasible.
However, I would be interested to see a side by side comparison of jug choking versus constriction choking and screw in chokes in muzzleloader barrels, and maybe then compare them to modern patterns.

 

[Walkabout]

So maybe it's an apples and oranges thing.

 

[Compressorguy]

Went opening day dove hunting last Saturday with my new to me 20ga flintlock Fowler and an unmentionable 12ga over/under. To say shooting doves with the flintlock was challenging is an understatement. I think I went 1 for 6 and scared the feathers off another. I went 4 for 6 with the unmentionable. The speed difference between the two will def take some getting used to and will only get better with more practice. I need to try some sporting clays next to figure out the lead difference. All in all though a very challenging, rewarding and much more fun hunting experience and I did get my goal of at least 1 dove with a flintlock!

 

[SciAggie]

Years ago I had a string of pointers and hunted bobwhite quail. I’ve hunted with modern shotguns (usually a sxs double). I’ve hunted a good bit with classic cartridge guns with shells loaded with BP - I did this because the smoke was cool. For a time a friend loaned me a SxS double percussion 12 gauge. In the field I never noticed any real difference between any of the guns. Granted, shots at bobwhites in our corner of the world are close.
This is about as unscientific as one can get. I’m just stating that I had about the same success with all three types of shotguns. The ones using BP were SO much more fun. I may get flamed but using my old LC Smith with BP shells was the most fun of all - kind of the best of both worlds.

 

[waksupi]

A friend of mine, Larry O'Connell, did the development of non-lead shot for ammunition companies many years ago. He would shoot lead loads from each gauge size first, to get a reference point. He said the ten bore black powder shotgun with lead shot outperformed all others, and would kill geese reliably at 80 yards.

 

[SciAggie]

A friend of mine, Larry O'Connell, did the development of non-lead shot for ammunition companies many years ago. He would shoot lead loads from each gauge size first, to get a reference point. He said the ten bore black powder shotgun with lead shot outperformed all others, and would kill geese reliably at 80 yards.

I could have gone ALL YEAR without you saying that - right after I let a beautiful, original, 10 gauge ML slip past me here on the forum… dag nabbit!

 

[Eterry]

As in all things, the Devil is in the details.
Hunting quail, the birds usually go away or a slight angle from you, so there's not as much lead to factor in. So I'd say there's not a much difference between smokeless and black powder guns on going away close shots.
Hunting Waterfowl, doves, and any other Pass shooting is another matter, IMHO. The lead is not even close, unless you're used to shooting Regulation Trap, where velocities are regulated.
Again, IMHO, you can't load steel shot fast enough to be effective on Waterfowl using black powder. If you use Bismuth or a similar metal with black powder and are familiar with the lead you can bring down birds.
I never was a fantastic Trap shooter, but it was very eye opening to shoot a round of trap with a 10 bore muzzleloader at Electra. The birds were just as fast as a smokeless range, and getting the lead right was challenging for me.
I saw 2 expert skeet shooters using flintlocks break 25 straight twice. They had a shoot-off the next day. The best part of the match.

 

[Bushfire]

I've done no wing shooting with my bp flintlock but I'm guessing there will be a velocity difference. I expect this will impact my accuracy as I'm used to leading bird for my smokeless shotgun.

That's without consideration to Chokes.

 

[hanshi]

I've never done any wing shooting with a muzzleloader and almost none with a modern gun. But I have shot running and trotting deer with flintlocks. The last deer I killed was a running shot with my .62 flintlock smoothbore. I no longer hunt anything.

 

[SciAggie]

I've never done any wing shooting with a muzzleloader and almost none with a modern gun. But I have shot running and trotting deer with flintlocks. The last deer I killed was a running shot with my .62 flintlock smoothbore. I no longer hunt anything.

I’ll tip my hat to any hunter that kills a running animal - particularly with a flintlock.

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

I've done a lot of wing and clay shooting with flint fowlers and find the ballistic performance between a modern shotgun and muzzleloading shotgun to be indistinguishable. I don't feel handicapped in the least using a flintlock fowler for bird hunting. I've posted numerous photos on this site to illustrate successful performance. While muzzleloading rifles are ballistically inferior to modern centerfire rifles, modern shotgun ammunition still provides load data in "archaic" blackpowder terminology because performance equates to blackpowder performance. A modern box of 12 gauge shotshells will state load data as 3 dram equivalent and 1 1/8 ounce of shot, because that was the blackpowder benchmark, and delivers excellent performance to this day.

Obviously, a muzzleloading shotgun is slower to load, but once you pull the trigger it delivers the same ballistic performance of a modern shotgun with the same results of a broken clay or dead bird

 

[jlatz]

Over the years I have used modern and or original percussion shotguns for hunting and clays. Both perform well.

 

[THE_LAST_WORD]

well if you are going to do it anyway.
toss in the
AEA ZEUS 72CALIBER(it is touted as 12 GA though it is rifled.
and

UMAREX PRIMAL 20 SLug (it is 20 GA and smoothbore)​

just sayin , cause that zeus throws lead at way over a thousand foot pounds energy (i think the most that gun has produced is 2998pounds of energy ) so i am pretty sure it will win.​

ya know , if there will be a competition, just sayin ​

 

[THE_LAST_WORD]

My experience? Well I shot competitive sporting clays and was nationally ranked in the low double digits before my disease wasted too much muscle to stay competitive. With that said, when I shot a black powder cartridge shotgun event (hammer guns only) at a rondy years back, I was so worried about smashing those floppy, easy clays they were throwing, I would be embarrassed. Almost refused to compete and told folks why I was worried. Turns out I was embarrassed, but only cause I turned in an average score at best. I could not adjust to the much slower speed of the black powder. Perhaps more practice and experience would correct things, dunno?
Its what you’re used to that will be the deciding factor. I do not believe you can effectively flip flop.
Walk

hmmm well that puts a small wrench into throwing in the air shotguns, but i am pretty sure they sling lead faster than a ML shotgun

 

[THE_LAST_WORD]

So maybe it's an apples and oranges thing.

apples oranges and pears, dont forget the airguns the pears are airguns zeus 72cal and primal 20Ga dont think either is choked but both are able to have the patterns changed by changing the air flow through the transfer port(same effect different way of doing it)