Moroccan Afedali Snaphaunce rebuild

[relyon59]

I sent an email with pics to Pecatonica River LRS asking if they had an English walnut (aka common walnut) stock blank of the same quality (not curly, as I suspect the original maker didn't use top-shelf wood). I've not heard back yet. I also found a couple sources of English walnut slabs that might work, but they're far more pricey ($350 and up) and much more wood than I'll ever need.

There’s a woodworker supply source in WI that will ship me 8X4S (4 surfaces planed) board of select-or-better black walnut that is planed to 1-13/16" x 8" x 60" for ~$170 + shipping. When I asked if it could be all heartwood (no sapwood), as straight-grained as possible, with no knots or visible voids, they said note that on the order and they'll hand select the best they have. If I buy a board from them, I should have enough for 2 stocks if I nest them correctly. Any exposed or subsurface nails, etc will damage their planer, so I think/hope that won't be a problem.

-Bob

 

[Rudyard]

Often we see any number of antique guns with original finish that is, or has eventually turned that very dark, almost black color. If you hold it under the right light, it sometimes gives off a slight purple-like heugh. I was once told many years ago that the original stock stains that turn much darker was due to the use of animal lard in the stain mixture. But I've not been able to confirm this.

Wood gets darker anyway I doubt they stained it just old & used does that anyway .But I wasn't there so no idea really .I've never seen a mint one but your gun looks pretty mint to me the Algerian one . Cheers Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

Hi Bob

IMHO I would try to purchase a wood blank from a known supplier of traditional muzzle loading firearms. They are out there. They know the correct type of cured wood you need. From plain straight grain to presentation grade, and all points in between. Just a matter of what you want and your budget. Dunlap Woodcrafts is a good source. I've used them a couple times for European/English walnut. It was $300.00+ for a blank, a few years ago. Yes, a nice piece of EU walnut is pricy. And in your case, not necessary.
It would be great if Pecatonica would have a suitable stock blank in straight grain walnut. Good you sent them an email with photos. They have always been good at getting back to me. If they have a stock blank that will work, you can purchase it and have them hold it for you till your visit. Or, they could likely come up with the right stock blank before your visit. AND, it might be possible to cut your stock - while you wait - if you give them a day and approximate time for the visit. (?) How cool would that be !! No shipping either way. LOL
But, in both of these suppliers know their gunstocks and what is expected.

Rick

 

[relyon59]

I emailed Pecatonica River LRS, and received the below reply this morning, indicating I will need to do all the shaping, inletting, etc. While having them carve the new stock would be nice, I'm sure I can do the necessary work.

I'll reply to Pecatonica and ask how much English walnut or American walnut stock blanks cost. Given the price$ I've seen for English walnut, I'll just purchase a stock blank if I use that wood; otherwise, I'll use American walnut and probably just purchase a full board and band saw two stock blanks from it.

-Bob

Hi Bob. That is not something that we do. We could supply you with a walnut blank and you could do the shaping and inletting. Thanks Doug
--------------------

From: "Bob Lyon"
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: July 29, 2024 at 1:01 PM MDT
Subject: Moroccan Afedali Snaphaunce musket stock

I’m restoring/rebuilding a Moroccan Afedali Snaphaunce musket to firing condition that needs a new stock. ...

 

[Rudyard]

I emailed Pecatonica River LRS, and received the below reply this morning, indicating I will need to do all the shaping, inletting, etc. While having them carve the new stock would be nice, I'm sure I can do the necessary work.

I'll reply to Pecatonica and ask how much English walnut or American walnut stock blanks cost. Given the price$ I've seen for English walnut, I'll just purchase a stock blank if I use that wood; otherwise, I'll use American walnut and probably just purchase a full board and band saw two stock blanks from it.

-Bob

Hi Bob. That is not something that we do. We could supply you with a walnut blank and you could do the shaping and inletting. Thanks Doug
--------------------

From: "Bob Lyon"
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: July 29, 2024 at 1:01 PM MDT
Subject: Moroccan Afedali Snaphaunce musket stock

I’m restoring/rebuilding a Moroccan Afedali Snaphaunce musket to firing condition that needs a new stock. ...

Its your gun but we are but custodians of antiques . Since the butt region is sound enough there's no reason to replace it particularly since you don't claim to have much in the way of skills if a new forend is required a careful scarph joint is all it might want If I was so determined to have such a gun Ide get the parts & make a copy, Any other course seems to me to be vandalism , cant put it any kinder .
Rudyard

 

[relyon59]

Rudyard-

I am reusing the two heel pieces attached with nails to the butt stock, but the bulk of the stock is definitely not sound. It's cracked and split as far back as the rear of the largest barrel band, and there's no place to make a scarf joint (see pic).

I appreciate your sentiments re: preserving this musket, as I’m restoring it with as many original parts as possible, while rebuilding it to be a fired again. My efforts are the next chapter in its history. Though I really wish I knew of its travels before it came to me, it will not hang on a wall for no one to see while I own it.

Frankly, writing things such as “… since you don't claim to have much in the way of skills ...” is counterproductive at best; I never made such a statement. I have far more skills doing this work than I care to document in a forum post, and do not need to justify them to anyone. “… Any other course seems to me to be vandalism , cant put it any kinder .” is incredibly rude, as it implies you consider me a vandal, and I take offense to that. In future posts, please keep such sentiments to yourself, sir.

-Bob

 

[relyon59]

(duplicate post removed)

 

[rickystl]

Hi Bob. That is a strange reply coming from Pecatonica ??? I've twice sent them my own blanks with a barrel and they cut just the barrel channel and drilled the ramrod hole. I believe they even list this service on their website. Maybe they mis-understood what your asking ? Might have thought you meant a complete pre-carve ? Which of course they can't do for this gun. I would get back with them and clarify.

The forearm of these original stocks, especially the upper edges where it meets the barrel are almost paper thin. Thus, after age, and hard use in a dry, mountainous climate, the forearm wood is usually as shown in Bob's photo. In this case, to make a shooter, a new wood stock is the only solution.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

I was once at the Antique Arms Show in Baltimore. Dunlap's Woodcrafts usually has I display there every year with a big selection of gunstock blanks. I bought a English walnut blank and talked to Charlie Dunlap himself. He is a good source for this wood of any kind for gun stocks. He said he often gets good English walnut blanks, but not in enough quantity to "list" on the website. But in any case, there is no way to do a decent piece of English walnut cheap. LOL

Rick

 

[relyon59]

Hi Bob. That is a strange reply coming from Pecatonica ??? I've twice sent them my own blanks with a barrel and they cut just the barrel channel and drilled the ramrod hole. I believe they even list this service on their website. Maybe they mis-understood what your asking ? Might have thought you meant a complete pre-carve ? Which of course they can't do for this gun. I would get back with them and clarify.

The forearm of these original stocks, especially the upper edges where it meets the barrel are almost paper thin. Thus, after age, and hard use in a dry, mountainous climate, the forearm wood is usually as shown in Bob's photo. In this case, to make a shooter, a new wood stock is the only solution.

Rick

Rick-

I believe Pecatonica thought I was asking for a precarve, so I replied and asked if they had English or American walnut stock blanks, and if they could do the barrel and ramrod channels. See my follow up and their reply below. So I'm encouraged by that. While I'm confident I can do either or both channels, I prefer not purchasing tools I don't already have in order to complete one stock.

But I'll do whatever is necessary. I also emailed Dunlop about getting English walnut blank, but have not heard back yet. I prefer English walnut to American walnut for the stock. It's not cheap, but it's authentic.

I'm currently looking for a local TIG welder to do minor work on a few of the lock parts, and I ordered some English flints from TOTW. Once I get all the components, I intend to inlet a scrap piece of 2x4 using a Dremel tool setup as a router, then rebuild and test the lock.

-Bob


Bob. We do have American black walnut and we could cut your barrel channel and ramrod channel. The full stock walnut blanks sell for $235
--------------------

From: "Bob Lyon" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: July 30, 2024 at 7:43 PM MDT
Subject: Re: Moroccan Afedali Snaphaunce musket stock blank
Doug,

Thank you for your reply. I understand that Moroccan musket stocks are not something you do.

The stock is 51” long from butt end to fore end with a 9-1/2” pull, 8” drop, and 1-5/8” wide at the lock (see attached pic). So a blank would need to be marginally bigger. The barrel is currently at Bobby Hoyt’s for rebore/reline, and is 47” long with a ~1” octagonal breech swamped to a flared muzzle. A few questions:

• Do you have English/common walnut stock blanks? If yes, at what price?
• Do you have American/black walnut stock blanks? If yes, at what price?
• Can Pecatonica cut the barrel trough and ramrod groove?

Cheers,

Bob Lyon

 

[Rudyard]

Rudyard-

I am reusing the two heel pieces attached with nails to the butt stock, but the bulk of the stock is definitely not sound. It's cracked and split as far back as the rear of the largest barrel band, and there's no place to make a scarf joint (see pic).

I appreciate your sentiments re: preserving this musket, as I’m restoring it with as many original parts as possible, while rebuilding it to be a fired again. My efforts are the next chapter in its history. Though I really wish I knew of its travels before it came to me, it will not hang on a wall for no one to see while I own it.

Frankly, writing things such as “… since you don't claim to have much in the way of skills ...” is counterproductive at best; I never made such a statement. I have far more skills doing this work than I care to document in a forum post, and do not need to justify them to anyone. “… Any other course seems to me to be vandalism , cant put it any kinder .” is incredibly rude, as it implies you consider me a vandal, and I take offense to that. In future posts, please keep such sentiments to yourself, sir.

-Bob

Dear Bob. I don't mean to offend you its my ingrained feeling that original guns are not disposable to our whims as so many have been so ruined like the putting to flint guns that where put to percussion in its working life ,The practice was so common, one Auctioneer listed all such converted guns as ' A flintlock. 'I knew one eager beaver so desirus of getting 'a flinter 'he bought a single Manton put to cap by that firm complete new breech plug he wrecked it! . I made him a single flint gun he shot no other shot twice for England in World Champs but he never cleaned it .I later bought it back and only lately sold it on along with a 58 rifle barrel option of my make , I've seen him shoot 11 'driven clays ' & won in a double gun match ,certainly a good shot , He quoted Col Hawker's books so often we called him ' Col Hawker ' Then he packed up and went to making model Traction engines .That was gun number 37 of 1980 I gave up numbering after the Two Hundred mark .
Regards Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

Hi Bob

That's GOOD news from Pecatonica. I would get the longest blank they have of walnut. You mention the LOP as about 9 1/2". With that end piece added, I'm guessing the current LOP is about 11-12". And that would be common for these guns. People were generally of smaller stature during this period, with people from these Eastern areas smaller still than Europeans. Thus, the shorter LOP we find on these guns.
The nice thing about making a new stock is that you can duplicate the original stock but ADD an inch or two to the butt stock to equal YOUR LOP.
I'm 6'0" tall with about a 13 1/2" LOP. So anything between 13-14" LOP is comfortable for me to point down range. But the original stocks usually being 11-12" are a bit awkward to shoulder. I know this from experience. I would get the longest length you can locate. You want extra length at the muzzle end to easily be able to cut back as needed for that 47" barrel. In this case, the fore-end of the finished stock will end up about 4"+ back from the muzzle of the barrel. So you can add this to the equation. LOL.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Hi Bob

That's GOOD news from Pecatonica. I would get the longest blank they have of walnut. You mention the LOP as about 9 1/2". With that end piece added, I'm guessing the current LOP is about 11-12". And that would be common for these guns. People were generally of smaller stature during this period, with people from these Eastern areas smaller still than Europeans. Thus, the shorter LOP we find on these guns.
The nice thing about making a new stock is that you can duplicate the original stock but ADD an inch or two to the butt stock to equal YOUR LOP.
I'm 6'0" tall with about a 13 1/2" LOP. So anything between 13-14" LOP is comfortable for me to point down range. But the original stocks usually being 11-12" are a bit awkward to shoulder. I know this from experience. I would get the longest length you can locate. You want extra length at the muzzle end to easily be able to cut back as needed for that 47" barrel. In this case, the fore-end of the finished stock will end up about 4"+ back from the muzzle of the barrel. So you can add this to the equation. LOL.

Rick

Dear Rick. You are condoning destruction of an antique to suit modern fancies. Good bad or ugly its' a document' customizing an original is against preservation we should be about preservation along with the study of such pieces using up related parts with old barrels & locks to get a specimen is acceptable the gun lives again, But re modeling one that survived complete is another matter .I say at the risk of being a Jiminy Cricket.
Rudyard the grouch

 

[rickystl]

Hi Rudyard

Of course, I respect your opinion. And, I admit that I tend to have an antique gun restored to a degree that's more than some "collectors" would like. But, I generally know when not to cross the line. I can explain my thinking, but I don't want to diverge from this Thread here.

But a thought just occurred to me: Your statement above could be placed in the "Original Antique Guns" section of the Forum. I think it would prompt a super interesting conversation. To restore or not ? And if so, to what degree ? There are many Forum members that are BOTH shooters and collectors. It would be interesting to hear what other members opinions are. Please do consider starting a separate Thread in that section. I would look forward to joining that Thread, as well as others. Thanks.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Hi Rudyard

Of course, I respect your opinion. And, I admit that I tend to have an antique gun restored to a degree that's more than some "collectors" would like. But, I generally know when not to cross the line. I can explain my thinking, but I don't want to diverge from this Thread here.

But a thought just occurred to me: Your statement above could be placed in the "Original Antique Guns" section of the Forum. I think it would prompt a super interesting conversation. To restore or not ? And if so, to what degree ? There are many Forum members that are BOTH shooters and collectors. It would be interesting to hear what other members opinions are. Please do consider starting a separate Thread in that section. I would look forward to joining that Thread, as well as others. Thanks.

Rick

Dear Rick . I suppose the original section is the place. My old friend' Felt Wad 'naturally posts there He's saved many guns from ruin what we do with modern MLs Replicas ect .cant matter they are expendable 'Their demise is their Glory 'so to speak but so many gong hunters have bought pristine originals & shot the poop out of them all to get a gong for their teams . A very transient glory. Podium, National Anthem, write up in' Muzzle Blasts ' or perhaps' Black Powder 'Or ' Visser' wherever they have magazines . so many have altered original to suit their fancy one William Carver wrote for M' blasts considered his whims more important than the preservation of originals .I noticed pointing this out he seast his column. Ime not saying old guns shouldn't be shot just not messed with . Sound Pompas ? but twas so .I once wrote an Article " Lord save the drum & nipple !" 'nobody else will.'
Rudyard's thinking

 

[relyon59]

I’ve searched extensively for English/common walnut to use for a new stock with little success. The English walnut I was able to find was in sizes far too large or small for the intended use. Pecatonica and Dunlop both have American/black walnut, but no English walnut.

After reluctantly deciding to use black walnut, I was able to order a kiln-dried, straight-grained, heartwood-only clear board 8" x 1-13/16" x 60" surfaced on 4 sides for $183 total including shipping. That size will be enough for 2 one piece stocks plus an extra board ~ 4" x 1-13/16" x 40" in size. I will bring the stock blank, barrel, and ramrod to Pecatonica for channeling when I'm in IL the last two weeks of September, 2024, and hopefully pick everything up before I head back to TX.

I'm also seeking suggestions and referrals for TIG or laser lock repairs in the thread Snaphaunce lock repairs that I started.

-Bob

PS- FWLIW, I put the original butt stock end pieces (that will be re-used) in place and re-measured the LOP to be ~10-1/4". Though that's on the short(er) side even for me (5'-7", 145 lb, medium build), my intent is to restore it as close to original as possible.

 

[Rudyard]

I’ve searched extensively for an English/common walnut to use for a new stock with little success. The English walnut I was able to find was in sizes far too large or small for the intended use. Pecatonica and Dunlop both have American/black walnut, but no English walnut.

After reluctantly deciding to use black walnut, I was able order a kiln-dried, straight-grained, heartwood-only clear board 8" x 1-13/16" x 60" surfaced on 4 sides for $183 total including shipping. That size will be enough for 2 one piece stocks plus an extra board ~ 4" x 1-13/16" x 40" in size. I will bring the stock blank, barrel, and ramrod to Pecatonica for channeling when I'm in IL the last two weeks of September, 2024, and hopefully pick everything up before I head back to TX.

I'm also seeking suggestions and referrals for TIG or laser lock repairs in the thread Snaphaunce lock repairs that I started.

-Bob

PS- FWLIW, I put the original butt stock end pieces (that will be re-used) in place and re-measured the LOP to be ~10-1/4". Though that's on the short(er) side even for me (5'-7", 145 lb, medium build), my intent is to restore it as close to original as possible.

If you where closer to here Ide give you a piece of walnut as fortuitously I scored a lot . But postage is a killer these days .
Regards Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

Morning Bob

English Walnut: I'm not too surprised that neither Pecatonica or Dunlap's had any English walnut in stock. seems there are times during the year that it is difficult to find. And when found, it's expensive. I remember Charlie Dunlap telling me he had a sort of impromptu waiting list if/when available for gun builders.

That would be great if Bobby Hoyt can have your barrel back (likely) before your trip. The two times I sent Pecatonica wood and barrel they turned the job around in like two days. And did a great job at a very reasonable price.

I noticed you placed your inquiry for TIG welding in the "Gun Builder's" section of the Forum. That's probably the best place. Someone on the Forum likely does, or knows someone who does this work. Just a matter of locating who. I once saw a classified ad in either the Muzzle Blast or Muzzle Loader magazine offering this work. But that was years ago. I imagine someone will respond this week. Meantime: Contact Forum member Dave Person by PM. I believe Dave has and uses a TIG welder. He is also a master muzzle loading gun builder.

LOP: At your average size that (for me) shorter LOP would be easier to manage off-hand. I'm 6'0" and about 215-lbs. It's the arm length where it really comes in play. Actually, I find a 12" LOP not that difficult to manage. I just position my shoulder a bit further forward. But shorter than that, I usually would shoot off the bench with my left hand cupped around the end of the butt stock to add some length so the lock is not so close to my face and I can get a decent sight picture. Anyway, if the original stock fit with you, all is good.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

Morning Bob

English Walnut: I'm not too surprised that neither Pecatonica or Dunlap's had any English walnut in stock. seems there are times during the year that it is difficult to find. And when found, it's expensive. I remember Charlie Dunlap telling me he had a sort of impromptu waiting list if/when available for gun builders.

That would be great if Bobby Hoyt can have your barrel back (likely) before your trip. The two times I sent Pecatonica wood and barrel they turned the job around in like two days. And did a great job at a very reasonable price.

I noticed you placed your inquiry for TIG welding in the "Gun Builder's" section of the Forum. That's probably the best place. Someone on the Forum likely does, or knows someone who does this work. Just a matter of locating who. I once saw a classified ad in either the Muzzle Blast or Muzzle Loader magazine offering this work. But that was years ago. I imagine someone will respond this week. Meantime: Contact Forum member Dave Person by PM. I believe Dave has and uses a TIG welder. He is also a master muzzle loading gun builder.

LOP: At your average size that (for me) shorter LOP would be easier to manage off-hand. I'm 6'0" and about 215-lbs. It's the arm length where it really comes in play. Actually, I find a 12" LOP not that difficult to manage. I just position my shoulder a bit further forward. But shorter than that, I usually would shoot off the bench with my left hand cupped around the end of the butt stock to add some length so the lock is not so close to my face and I can get a decent sight picture. Anyway, if the original stock fit with you, all is good.

Rick

Brer Dave is indeed a very capable maker if I think he might just scratch his head at a Moroccan Kabyle .Ive got one in the Shed but its not mine its Ruffer than any bags, But its had use. A Gentleman out west Sam Senco in Wyoming be more in tune if he's still going He made Miguelets when every one else had the "Gotta get a Hawken" mania. I met him at the second Shawnee NMLRA Eastern R vous (Trolls )
Cheers Rudyard

 

[relyon59]

I PM'd dave_person, who referred me to FlinterNick for the repairs I seek. Nick and I spoke this afternoon, and I will send the disassembled snaphaunce lock and a list of requested repairs to him tomorrow. With both the barrel and the lock out, I anxiously await the walnut for the new stock, and received an email it was shipped UPS today!

Sometime soon I should also receive the American Colonial Pistol kit I ordered from Cabin Creek Muzzleloading. Until one of those arrives, I'll start to construct the wings of the Sonex-B airplane I'm building ...

-Bob