Mountain Man Rifle

[TeutonicHeathen]

I was wanting a authentic looking Mountain Man muzzleloader. I am real big into the fur trading and trapping era. I already own a TC Hawken but heard they are not truly authentic to the Mountain Men firearms. I was browsing around and came across a Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken, It is one of the most beautiful guns I have ever seen with the browned barrel and the curly maple stock. My question is, is it a authentic copy of what they would have carried? Is it a good rifle? I would like to use it to hunt deer and hopefully larger game in the future.

 

[rusty]

Hi there,I don't know how close the pedersoi to a real Hawken rifle,but the Hawken rifle,was a lot more money than the average trapper could afford.The rifle the mountaneers used was usualy just a plain Lancaster styled flint lock,sigle trigger,plain looking patch box.if i can be of further help to you let me know,there are a lot members of this forum,more knowledgable than I am.

 

[Zonie]

IMO, the Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken is a nice rifle and its styling does come close to a Hawken. So does the Lyman Great Plains rifle for that matter.

Yes, there are differences between these rifles and a true Hawken but as rusty pointed out, not all Mountain Men carried Hawken rifles (Joe Meek comes to mind).

The Thompson Center "Hawken" is closer to the guns made in California after the Gold Rush which is after the fur trade era had ended.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Not meaning to be critical, but if you are "real big" into reenacting the era, I would surmise you associate with others who do the same. Reading ml and buckskinning magazines is a good start. Attending events with others of your avocation is a great way to learn and see other rifles. Hanging around here is a good start also.
Lotsa information available on the internet.
This might be a good place to start: http://www.furtrade.org/
But, IMHO, a factory made rifle would be about as far away from what you want as is possible. Good starters but truly representative of what you want? Not close.

 

[ebiggs1]

I have shown this picture on this forum many times. And not many get it right!
Which is the real Hawken?

As you can see the differences are very close and probably close enough for all but the most strict HC/PC individual.
The Pedersoli Rock Mountain is a very nice rifle. For the money and availability it may be the best choice. If you like it go for it but if it is a little costly for you than the Lyman GPR is also very good and very close.

Original rifles that resemble your TC Hawken are,

 

[crockett]

You probably ought to read a few books on the Hawken rifle. TOW sells some kits that show the parts so that is a big help. One of the big things is barrel length. A lot of the "Hawken" rifles sold have 32" barrels while many of the originals had 36- 39" barrels.
It's true the amount of Hawken rifles was limited, it is estimated maybe 1 in 10 but if you like a percussion lock then the Hawken would be a very good choice. It is believed Provost had one in 1829 and Ashley was reported to have one on the first trip upriver where the boat sank (I think 1822).

 

[BrownBear]

October Country has a version they call a Liver Eating Johnson rifle and a deluxe version. I have no firsthand experience with them, but they reviewed very well in Muzzleloader magazine in the last year. Both have 32" barrels.

Here's an insight for you: I have a 58 cal GRRW Hawken that's awfully close to the originals. It has a 36" barrel tapered from 1 1/8" to 1" at the muzzle. It's wonderfully accurate and well balanced, but a tank to carry in the field at 12 pounds.

 

[nmdd]

http://donstith.com/muzzle_loading_rifles.html

 

[yadkin]

I just use a Lyman Great Plains Rifle but I browned all the metal with a browing solution and lightened up the stock a bit (the color) and changed out the rear sight its close enough for me and what I do as for as reenacting goes.

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

HC/PC is a slippery slope my friend. In reading your post you say you are “into” the era but you do not say you are into reenacting. So if your interest is for your personal edification rather than for a specific reenacting pursuit I would say either the Pedersoli or GPR would be a good choice for a very late/post fur trade era rifle. If on the other hand, you really want to get a rifle truly representative of the fur trade era rifle, I would look into a flintlock trade rifle type as produced by Dickert, Henry, and such. I find doing the research on such topics very enjoyable and edifying you may too.

 

[smokymountainmike]

I have a Pedersoli Rocky Mt Hawken and a Lyman GPR both are .54 caliber. The Pedersoli is a fine rifle and the fit and finish is about as good as you will find on a production rifle. The Lyman is also a good rifle and is very accurate. The wood to metal fit on the GPR isn't nearly as good as the Pedersoli but it cost about half what the Pedersoli cost. I stripped all of the bluing off of the metal parts on my GPR and refinished it with a rust brown finish. It turned out real good and now it has a much more authenic look. I also installed a primitive fixed sight on the rear of my GPR when I refinished it. If cost is a factor I would go with the GPR. If you can afford the Pedersoli you will have a rifle you will be proud of for years to come.

 

[roger fisher]

If authenticity is your goal you will probly want something other than a hawken. Finding a hawken on the frontier during the height of the fur trade era would probly have been a rare occurance and not the norm that hollywood has made it out to be. You will probly also want to stick with a flintlock as it is my understanding the early percussion caps were un stable and unreliable at best making the flintlock a more trusty weapon. Also You may want to consider a smoothbore as the trade guns were very common and much more afforable. At least thats the way i've been taught. Also A fellow told me that you were more likely to find a hawken on the Oregon trail trhan at a rondezvous. Just my two cents worth. Good luck !!!

 

I got tired a number of years ago of having a "somewhat look alike" Hawken rifle. Ken Netting built me a walnut full stocked "Hawken" that has a Bill Large 1"X36" barrel in .50 caliber and sports butt plate, trigger guard and triggers, cap box, lock and thimbles hand made by Eddie Meyers. The rifle was built from original Hawken specs, given a lght antique finish and is often taken for an original at shows and shoots.
Mark

 

[Bill Hall]

Like already mentioned, a flintlock would better represent the fur trade era. Not too many percussion guns used during that time and place, maybe a few towards the end. It wasn't until sometime in the 1840's when Kit Carson walked around Taos showing off his first percussion rifle.

I think any big bore (like around .54 cal) eastern flintlock rifle of the time would be appropriate for the fur trade, maybe with a "well worn" look. Just my thoughts. Bill

 

[greggholmes]

If you want a true Hawkens
http://www.daytraco.com/Departments/The-Hawken-Shop.aspx

Original Hawken Rifle Examples

http://www.daytraco.com/examples.aspx

Interesting Hawken Facts:

St. Lois Missouri March 18, 1992 Claudette Green & Greg Roberts Hawken Shop Harbour Island, WA. 98277 Dear Claudette & Greg, The departure of Art Ressel's "Hawken Shop" from the St. Louis area has proven to be a great loss to the muzzle loading caplock rifle devotees here in the Midwest. As a direct descendent of Jacob Hawken, of the Sake and Sam Hawken St. Louis gunsmiths, this loss is both personal and poignant. For I have always been proud of my heritage, particularlythe fact that the Hawken Rifle is widely acclaimed for its exceptional craftsmanship and superior quality. While I regret its loss, it's gratifying to know that you have acquired the "Hawken Shop," moved it to the state of Washington and have continued building the recreations of the classic S. Hawken plains rifle. In so doing, you are continuing the true Hawken tradition by the authenticity and dedicated quality of your recreations. For this, I offer my congratulations and support. In addition, I applaud you for your continuing endeavors in upholding the reputation and tradition associated with the Hawken Rocky Mountain Rifle. Sincerely, John R. Hawken

 

[Rifleman1776]

its close enough for me

End of discussion.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Very uninspiring web site. Very few pics of their products and most of those are postage stamp size. I would not be motivated to buy from them based on what I see.

 

[redneck]

when its all said done have you looked at flint tradeguns. smoothbores were more versitle and just as accurate for hunting

 

[matt denison]

I was wanting a authentic looking Mountain Man muzzleloader. I am real big into the fur trading and trapping era. I already own a TC Hawken but heard they are not truly authentic to the Mountain Men firearms. I was browsing around and came across a Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken, It is one of the most beautiful guns I have ever seen with the browned barrel and the curly maple stock. My question is, is it a authentic copy of what they would have carried? Is it a good rifle? I would like to use it to hunt deer and hopefully larger game in the future.

For what it is worth:

A mountain man was more likely to be carrying an American Long Rifle than a Hawkin's half stock. In a rather in-depth article by Steve Garby in the "American Tradition" magazine he says,

"The mistake typically made is that Hawken rifles were the preffered or even commonly used firearm in the early days of the western fur trade. Rifles bearing the name Dickert, Gumpf, Dreppard, More, Leman, Gibbs, Fordney, Brandt and Henry were much more likely to be in the hands of the western frontiersman...."

The point being that you don't need to have a Hawken or other "trade rifle" or "plains rifle" to be auhentic. However if you really want a Hawken style rifle then go for it.

 

[Dphar]

I was wanting a authentic looking Mountain Man muzzleloader. I am real big into the fur trading and trapping era. I already own a TC Hawken but heard they are not truly authentic to the Mountain Men firearms. I was browsing around and came across a Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken, It is one of the most beautiful guns I have ever seen with the browned barrel and the curly maple stock. My question is, is it a authentic copy of what they would have carried? Is it a good rifle? I would like to use it to hunt deer and hopefully larger game in the future.

If you want a "real Mtn Man rifle".
You need a copy of John Baird's 2 books. "Hawken Rifles The Mountai Man's Choice" and "15 Years in the Hawken Lode"
Hanson's "The Plains Rifle" is pretty good.
His "Hawken Rifles: Their place in History" (?) is a little too sour grapes for my taste.
But what you desperately need is
"Firearms of the American West 1803-1865" By Garavaglia and Worman. Actually if you have this you don't need anything else really.

Get this from interlibrary loan through your local library or try to find a used one. If you want the study firearms in the West this and perhaps the 1866-1894 volume are a requirement.
But they are, unfortunately out of print SFAIK.
Well researched, no BS, many PERIOD accounts from Journals etc. Priceless info. I have not seen the later 1998 printing. I would get the 1985 version if possible. http://www.amazon.com/Firearms-American-West-1803-1865-v/dp/0870814834

I really like the Hawken rifle. It was used and was surely the best quality American rifle on the frontier.
But we have to remember the American Fur Co was buying JJ Henry "New English" and "Scroll Guard" rifles almost exclusively and all through the 1830s in FLINTLOCK only. It would be very late 1830s before any percussions show up in the orders.
Then we have the usual Kentucky. Remember a 50-54 cal Kentucky or Southern MT rifle will do anything a Hawken or a JJ Henry will.
However, most Kentucky's and SMRs were too small in the bore. Calibers under 50, documented, were not considered adequate in the west do to the longer ranges and the generally larger game. This is written down from the time BTW. But calibers over 54 were rare because the number of balls to the pound drops at an incredible rate. A 54 rifle uses about 30 to the pound. A 62 20 to the pound. The 69 about 14 to the pound. Also the American stock design of 1820-1850 was not suited to calibers over 54. AND balls of this approximate size were what were used in the 24 bore trade guns so there was a supply of ammo if the mould were lost.
So a real Mtn Man Rifle? Sure a Hawken or other St Louis rifle. But there are a LOT of completely valid options available.
If your Grandfathers 50 caliber JP Beck shot really good why would you trade it off in St Louis for something else? Maybe have the lock gone over and the barrel freshed to 52 if its needed and its as good in FUNCTION as anything else.
There is a lot of myth involved with the rifles the MTN men used. They CERTAINLY were not all 1/2 stocked percussion rifles. Though by 1840-50 this was becoming the norm. But 1845 is after the classic Mtn Man era, all had moved on to other pursuits or died of old age by 1845.

Dan