Multi-Groove Rifling - Pro's and Con's?

[John May]

Hi

I have a single shot percussion Belgian target pistol in approx' .54" cal. It is fitted with a sweet set trigger and pretty reasonable sights.
The barrel length is a tad short of 9", the bore is in very good condition and is finely rifled in the multi-groove style. I have been told by a couple of seasoned shooters that 'no one has ever done any good with a multi-grooved rifled pistol".
My question is, are they correct? Personally I have no experience of this type of rifling and was hoping to shoot the pistol in competition. Does anyone on here shoot this type of gun and if so how do you get on with it?
Your comments would be greatly appreciated.

I am hoping to post a couple of pictures later this week-end.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

I thought all rifled barrels had multiple grooves in them?

I am not sure what the rifling design is that you speak of, do you happen to have an example?

 

[mhb]

I believe the term you are looking for is 'polygroove' rifling, which has the appearance at the muzzle of a many-pointed star. It was fairly popular at one time for screw-barreled arms, and some other types, but can be considered an obsolete oddity. I've never shot a polygrooved arm, but don't think it would be a good choice for PRB.

mhb - Mike

 

[Zonie]

By "multi-groove" rifling, are you describing a barrel with many fine pitched, shallow grooves, closely touching one another?

If so, no, I haven't had any personal experience with them but I would think they would work provided that the barrel was lightly cleaned between shots to remove the fouling buildup.

As with all muzzleloading guns, each will have combinations of powder loads, patch thicknesses and patch lube's that it likes and those that it doesn't like.

My suggestion is that you try several different combinations, using a support under the grip while shooting the gun.

The support will help to reduce variations that can be caused by a host of things that go along with shooting a pistol from a "offhand" position.
This will allow you to see what the different loads are actually doing rather than testing your shooting ability.

If the bore of the gun is in good condition I would expect it to shoot targets quite accurately.

 

[John May]

That's just the sort of rifling I meant, I recall seeing similar rifling on a Marlin Lever Gun a few years ago. Anyway, as promised here are a few pictures.



Difficult to see in the picture but there is a definite flare to the end of the barrel, I only noticed it when I was sighting it!



No makers name, proof marks or anything else visible, just a couple of numbers under the barrel. The silver shield on the stock is engraved II, No. 2 of a pair I suspect.



I take the point about frequent light cleaning, it stand to reason that fouling is going to make a significant difference to such shallow rifling. Thanks for the heads up Zonie!

Forgot to mention, the barrel slugs out at .542" avg so to start with I will use a .535 ball and a 10 thou patch over 18 grains of Swiss 2 powder.

 

[azmntman]

Never see that type rifling, let us know how it groups!

 

[George]

I have a Marlin Model 39M .22 rifle with what Marlin called Micro-Groove rifling, introduced in the 1950s. It has 12 narrow grooves, and is very accurate. The rifling appears very similar to that in your pistol. Comparing velocities over my chronograph with a Ruger and a Mossberg rifle of similar barrel length and shooting the same ammo, I found that velocities of the Micro-Groove barrel were consistently slower by about 100 fps over many 10-shot strings. Increased friction, I assumed. I don't believe that would be an accuracy issue in your pistol, even if the same were true of it.

I hope you will report your experience with the pistol to the board.

Spence

 

[John May]

Hoping to shoot it next Saturday, I am gathering all the bits and pieces at the moment, different patches mostly. I have a supply of cast balls in .535" and have ordered some swaged in .530" and .535". Looking forward to working the loads!

 

[mooman76]

I have heard of people saying you can't shoot lead in the micro grooved barrels and I have heard some say they do it but never heard of one in BP. It looks to me like it might be difficult but that is guess more than anything. Allot of people say you can't shoot lead in the polygon rifling either but I did it without any problem.

It probably will just be matter of finding the right combo and at least it is a pistol which should be easier than a rifle due to lower pressure loads. Good luck.

 

[Zonie]

You say there is no markings on the pistol?

You also show that you are in the UK.

I thought all working guns in the UK had to be proofed by the Government and marked with a proof mark if they passed the test.

It looks like it is a very nice old pistol. Hope it shoots well for you.

 

[pargent]

I have seen it before it was popular for shooting plastic sabot covered modern pistol conicals out of m/lers , for patched ball try light loads and see how you go .

 

[pargent]

Micro groove .

 

[TFoley]

You say there is no markings on the pistol?

You also show that you are in the UK.

I thought all working guns in the UK had to be proofed by the Government and marked with a proof mark if they passed the test.)

The Proof Acts only apply to modern firearms and replicas.

Since this is a genuinely antique gun, unless the current owner subsequently wishes to sell it on to a person who also wants to shoot it, he is NOT obliged to have it proofed.

He may, if he wants, have it proofed to satisfy his own mind, but he is not obligated to do it.

My 1861 Canadian Militia Snider WILL get proofed before I shoot it.

The law here in UK is very odd to you, and also to many here as well.

For instance, you can buy ANY antique firearm, smoothbore or rifled, muzzle-loader or any of the cartridges on the Gubmint obsolete cartridge list, so long as you are over 18 y/o.

IF, however, you want to shoot it, it has to be entered on your Firearms Certificate, the same as any other modern-made firearm. Again, there is no obligation to have it proofed if you are the first person to want to actually shoot it since the law changed way back when, but if you want to sell it as a non-firer, you cannot do so, since it has since been registered as a 'live-firer' and the new owner MUST have a 'slot' free on this firearms certificate to enable him to buy it off you...

Makes sense?

Of course it doesn't.

But it IS the law.

Here are details of the Birmingham Proof House, one of two in the UK [the other one in in London] -

The Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House is a weapons proofing establishment in Banbury Street, Birmingham, UK. The building was designed by John Horton and consists of a centre bay, emphasised by a segmental parapet, which contains trophies by William Hollins. A Jacobean-style gateway was added in 1883.[1] It is a grade II* listed building. [2]

The Proof House was established in 1813 by an act of Parliament at the request””and expense””of the then prosperous Birmingham Gun Trade. Its remit was to provide a testing and certification service for firearms in order to prove their quality of construction, particularly in terms of the resistance of barrels to explosion under firing conditions. Such testing prior to sale or transfer of firearms is made mandatory by the Gun Barrel Proof Act of 1868, which made it an offence to sell, offer for sale, transfer, export or pawn an unproofed firearm, with certain exceptions for military organisations.

The Proof process is that of testing a firearm for integrity using a severely overcharged cartridge, or Proof load which is fired through the gun in an armoured testing chamber. This exposes it to pressures far beyond what it would experience in normal service. It is awarded a stamped Proof Mark if it survives without either being destroyed or suffering damage from the proof load. Larger guns were tested at a shooting range in Bordesley along a railway viaduct however, the expansion of the city centre resulted in the closure of the shooting range.

Proof may be rendered invalid if the firearm is damaged or modified significantly; at this point it is described as "out of proof" and must be re-proofed before it can be sold or transferred. Note that the correct term for a satisfactorily tested firearm is Proofed, and not Proven.

There are penalties for non-compliance with proof laws; a fine of £5,000 may be levied for selling an unproofed or out-of proof firearm, more if a number of firearms are involved in a transaction. Tampering with, or forging, a proof mark is regarded as even more serious.

The Proof House still exists today, largely unchanged in both purpose and construction, although it offers a wider range of services including ammunition testing and firearm accident investigation. The building contains a museum of arms and ammunition, and can be visited by prior arrangement.


tac

 

[John May]

I bought the pistol with the intention of shooting it in the MLAGB Kuchenreuter Original Competition, it will be interesting to see how it performs. If it does shoot well it will then need to be entered on my Firearms Certificate as per Home Office Guidelines before it will be eligible for use. Saying that, it will need to shoot very well as a recent club competition was won with a 94/100! An impressive score considering the age of the pistol used!

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Beautiful gun. :bow:

 

[TFoley]

If it does shoot well it will then need to be entered on my Firearms Certificate as per Home Office Guidelines before it will be eligible for use.

SC - I, too, live in the UK and I didn't know that you could shoot it without already having it on your FAC. How do you do that?

tac

 

[John May]

I shoot with an RFD who will hold it on his ticket for me while we 'assess it's potential'.

 

[arquebus]

Solitary Cyclist, that is a very nice pistol you have there. A very knowledgeable late friend of mine, & fellow MLAIC shooter, had a similarly rifled pistol to yours & he referred to the style as 'Cannon-Rifling' &, in appearance, it is quite similar to the modern micro-groove style as used by Marlin.
I also have a Belgian-made percussion pistol that has, in my opinion, more of a multi-groove rifling & has eleven relatively shallow grooves. Whilst your pistol is more of a target, or possibly dueling, style my friend's & mine are more what would be considered 'Traveler's Pistols' being a little more compact & utilitarian.
I have always referred to my pistol as a .53 caliber, as I shoot a patched .527" round ball, but I suppose it could be considered a .54 caliber.
While I have never shot it in serious competition I did submit a number of 'qualifying' targets I had shot with it when I was a member of the USIMLT (2000-2009), so I must have been scoring in the low-mid 90s.....at least on occasion! However, being primarily a rifle shooter I tended to concentrate more on the Minie, Whitworth, & Maximilian events.
The load I use is the above mentioned .527" RB with a .010" cotton patch over 15gns of GoEx 3Fg. I've never had an issue with fouling, & have found that the damp patch (around the ball) is sufficient to 'wipe' the bore between shots.
I have included some pictures of my pistol. It is 12" in overall length, with a 7" barrel. The grip is fluted & blends seamlessly into the iron grip cap &, I have to say, it is the most comfortable & natural handling m/l pistol I have ever shot. The trigger is plain, & the pistol is fitted for a loading rod though it was missing when I acquired it.
The only marking is a Liege proofmark at the rear of the left hand barrel flat.

 

[nkbj]

Saw it in old books and now saw one for real.
Thank you for posting the well taken photos.

 

[Pete G]

Looks to be similar to the Marlin "micro groove" rifling. It should shoot just fine; the ball doesn't care how the spin is imparted. Should probably be wiped clean after every shot due to the small grooves being easily filled with fouling.

Let us know how it works out.