Musket(?) & Back Action Lock Questions

[Clint Meier]

Howdy folks, my dad had a few ML parts that I got among other things when he passed in 2018. Just now getting around to sorting through some of his stuff. Pictured below are two old lock assemblies, one possibly from some kind of Musket and the other just a percussion back action lock.
On the first the lock plate measures 5-1/4" long, is 1-1/4" wide, has a throw of about 2-1/4" and the hammer nose recess is about 1/2" in diameter. On the front of the lock plate is a stamping of what appears to be a small shield with a letter 'J' in it. All the other stampings appear on the back (inside) of the lock assembly and include the number '34' stamped on the lock plate, hammer, bridle, tumbler, sear lever and both screw heads and various other letters/numbers here and there on several of those parts. The lock itself is well fitted and functions well with good half **** and full **** notches. Any ideas on what this came off of originally?
On the second the lock plate measures 4-7/8" long, is 1" wide, is marked 'WARRANTED' with light engraving on both the hammer and lock plate. The lock functions, but the hammer is loose on the tumbler shaft, the thin edges of the hammer nose are damaged and the sear lever is loose on its pivot screw. It comes with a lock bolt that fits loosely into its threaded hole in the lock plate, which looks to have been peened around from the back of the lock plate.
Would either of these be likely to be of any use to someone on this forum? Not asking for values, just usefulness. If so, I'll list them for sale in the Classifieds section.

Thanks in advance!

 

[tallPercshooter]

Interesting in the top lock how the same spring functions as the mainspring for the hammer, and the sear spring.

 

[Clint Meier]

Boy, I'd have thought that someone on this forum might have had a clue as to what either of these locks may have come off of! I guess that I win at stumping the readers! Thanks for looking!

 

[Clint Meier]

Thanks for pointing that feature out tallPercshooter, I had failed to notice that myself.

 

[cynthialee]

probably came off old shotguns

clean them up and sell them if you have no plans to use them
they are not important enough to leave in an aged state and they will likely sell better if you square them away
take a couple hours

love the speed of back action locks

 

[Sam squanch]

The top lock with the chunky hammer is for a French military musket, the production date should be stamped inside the lock plate if real military issue. No stamp, a Belgian knockoff. I would be interested in that lock if you want to sell it.

 

[Sam squanch]

The problem with the French percussion locks like yours is they use a special breech plug. The cone is almost dead center of the top of the barrel, almost an upside down Underhammer! The rifle shoppe is the only place that might have one. I ordered one 3 years ago. Still waiting……

 

[Clint Meier]

Thanks for your comments cynthialee! Appreciated! Sam, PM sent.

 

[Rudyard]

Boy, I'd have thought that someone on this forum might have had a clue as to what either of these locks may have come off of! I guess that I win at stumping the readers! Thanks for looking!

Well seems I missed it perhaps I can help The bigger lock is continental European Military c 1840s/50s/60s the other just a 'commercial 'probabley export lock probably Birmingham/ Black country offering .No mysteries there .Most Continental govt locks tend to follow the French designs and the arsenal would have a script Arsenal origin if it often wears faint.
Regards Rudyard

 

[bluenoser]

I am pretty sure the top lock came off a Belgian-made zulu shotgun. As I recall, the zulus were assembled at least partially using parts from obsolete military arms and were primarily intended for the African trade.

 

[Rudyard]

I expect some might have gone for African trade but Most seem to have been just cheap knockabout farmers guns . The' Zulu' part just a lable they turn up commonly' got up 'from any sort of obsolete going. Not that that's against them .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Sam squanch]

As a safety note- the best thing to do with the old Zulu shotguns is to remove the firing pin and weld the breech shut. Guy years ago managed to fit a 10 gauge MODERN cartridge in one. It did not end well for him.

 

[RAEDWALD]

I am pretty sure the top lock came off a Belgian-made zulu shotgun. As I recall, the zulus were assembled at least partially using parts from obsolete military arms and were primarily intended for the African trade.

They were assembled from military muskets and rifled muskets which were converted to breech loaders by the Snider/Schneider joint French patents as the M1863 Tabatiere rifle for the French National Guard and used in the 1870 War. Sold to the Belgians thereafter who converted them to shotguns for the North American cheap trade as black powder breechloaders. Marketed as ‘Zulu’ but were not sold for the African trade. Being banned as breechloaders. So very popular in the USA that they were reduced in the end to making their own receivers as they ran out of original Tabatiere. The only real weakness was if later owners used smokeless cartridges and stretched the receivers. Marginally within forum rules in that all were once muzzleloaders.