I am not involved much with rifled muskets, such as those used in the Civil War. In any event I started wondering why these weapons are never used in hunting since sharpshooters used these rifles in the Civil War. I have never heard of any replicas being used for hunting and in researching various weapons used on the frontier it seems they were totally absent. Any thoughts? It seems a big 58 caliber, concial bullet would be great for big game. :hmm:
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Musket Hunting
- Thread starter crockett
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Cartridge arms obsoleted the originals so fast it would have made your head spin. I have read accounts of cartridge conversion muskets with the Snyder breech being used by hunters. I don't believe there was a flood of surplus arms heaped on the public after the war, though it would certainly seem the numbers were there.
I have read several accounts of modern hunters using CW reproductions, but I don't personally know anyone who has carried one hunting. The Remington Zouve I remember specifically as I was thinking of one for myself at the time. That big 'ol .58 Mini
I have read several accounts of modern hunters using CW reproductions, but I don't personally know anyone who has carried one hunting. The Remington Zouve I remember specifically as I was thinking of one for myself at the time. That big 'ol .58 Mini
Guest
surplus rifled muskets were a mainstay of frontier life.
They were overshadowed by the development of reliable repeaters (Henry and Spencer) during the same war that brought the rifled musket into wide use.
People on the frontier of the 1870s wanted repeaters. I don't blame them a bit! Fighting plains Indians demanded high firepower, just ask Custer.
surplus CW muskets were sold as surplus all over the nation by Bannerman and other dealers. Many were reamed out to 20 or 28 ga and sold as ML shotguns.
at the end of the war many of the Rifled muskets were converted to breechloading form and sold as surplus. .58 rimfire (wow)! .50-70 then .45-70 for the government.
We have lots of guys on the forum that hunt with repros of all kinds, Besses to CW rifled muskets.
They were overshadowed by the development of reliable repeaters (Henry and Spencer) during the same war that brought the rifled musket into wide use.
People on the frontier of the 1870s wanted repeaters. I don't blame them a bit! Fighting plains Indians demanded high firepower, just ask Custer.
surplus CW muskets were sold as surplus all over the nation by Bannerman and other dealers. Many were reamed out to 20 or 28 ga and sold as ML shotguns.
at the end of the war many of the Rifled muskets were converted to breechloading form and sold as surplus. .58 rimfire (wow)! .50-70 then .45-70 for the government.
We have lots of guys on the forum that hunt with repros of all kinds, Besses to CW rifled muskets.
Rat
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I believe that the rifled muskets were used widely for some time. It's the hollywood/movie image that shows or portrays everyone haveing a cartridge rifle the same year they came on the market. I'm sure that people without a lot of money, that were not involved in the Indian wars or law-enforcement got along fine with a mil-surp rifled musket as far as just bagging a deer, moose, or elk, or black bear for food.
Yes, those on the frontier would probably aquire cartridge rifles as soon as possible, but I bet there were many rifled-muskets in use for many years, and many young boys probably "cut thier teeth" on them for years. Hollywood has just given us a totally different image.
A Zouave has been my BP hunting rifle for about 30 years. I have now "graduated" to a Brown Bess flintlock musket, and have a .62" Caliber Jeager being built. Also have a 1861 Springfield rifle "in the mail", hopefully here next week.
Anywho...ABSOLUTELY, the .58 minnie rifle is a "high performance" black powder rifle for sure. Probably still superior to all the whizz-bang .50 Caliber inline "things" we have now. My old Zouave will take up to 140 grains under a 625 grain slug...that kind of speaks for it's self I would say. (I've only tried that a few times...my hot load is actually 110 grains under the 625, and mostly I load 90 grains, for a ".58-90-625") The 500 grain minnie over 70 grains of black will kill any deer, elk, moose or blackbear easy I'm sure. The rifled muskets of civil war vintage are really great, and a lot of people have really missed out on a good thing as far as hunting rifles go.
Rat
Yes, those on the frontier would probably aquire cartridge rifles as soon as possible, but I bet there were many rifled-muskets in use for many years, and many young boys probably "cut thier teeth" on them for years. Hollywood has just given us a totally different image.
A Zouave has been my BP hunting rifle for about 30 years. I have now "graduated" to a Brown Bess flintlock musket, and have a .62" Caliber Jeager being built. Also have a 1861 Springfield rifle "in the mail", hopefully here next week.
Anywho...ABSOLUTELY, the .58 minnie rifle is a "high performance" black powder rifle for sure. Probably still superior to all the whizz-bang .50 Caliber inline "things" we have now. My old Zouave will take up to 140 grains under a 625 grain slug...that kind of speaks for it's self I would say. (I've only tried that a few times...my hot load is actually 110 grains under the 625, and mostly I load 90 grains, for a ".58-90-625") The 500 grain minnie over 70 grains of black will kill any deer, elk, moose or blackbear easy I'm sure. The rifled muskets of civil war vintage are really great, and a lot of people have really missed out on a good thing as far as hunting rifles go.
Rat
I took my first cow elk with a .58 Reb carbine replica and have hunted quite a bit with it and a Zouave replica. Neither of these replicas were particularly accurate, however. Here in western Kansas there were a bunch of .58 service rifles carried by farmers and settlers just after the Civil War. In fact I would estimate that it was the single most popular firearm until after the bison were killed off. Returning vets trusted in and knew how to use them, and they were CHEAP! The problem was that after the bison and Indians were shot out by '73 there really wasn't much use for a big bore muzzleloader to be carried by the average Joe. But "Great-Grandpa's old muzzleloader" still shows up in closets and such to this day out here and is still the most common muzzleloader that you will find.
RussB
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I noticed this post when it first came on the forum. I guess I was just waiting on everyone else to voice their views, because I'm still a bit undecided.
After thinking this over a bit, I have come up with the reason I "personally" no longer use my rifled musket for hunting everything.
I hunted with it for two years. Took a nice spike Elk, nearly shooting from "stem to stern" with a quarter facing shot. It does have all you want and need in power.
However, It is HEAVY!
It is LONG!
It is big, and hard to get around with in thick cover, and
It has no "real" BALANCE, IMO.
Also, hunting loads, with heavy conicals, kicks your fool head off. Before season even starts, you develop a flinch. Of course you don't notice any of this when hunting, until after the shot!
Other than that, I love my 1861 Colt Musket in .58cal.
The .54 Hawken w/28", 15/16 barrel represents about my limit in carrying all day.
The smaller .50 cal Penn Hunter, w/33" barrel, is a pure joy for the woods, and is not to long to "swing", yet light enough to pack all day, while balance and pointing is near perfect...for me.
I just wish I felt comfortable hunting Elk with it. The .54 is better for Elk, and the .58 is better yet!
So, the question remains...why don't I hunt more with the Musket?? I don't know.
Just my thoughts. :results:
Russ
After thinking this over a bit, I have come up with the reason I "personally" no longer use my rifled musket for hunting everything.
I hunted with it for two years. Took a nice spike Elk, nearly shooting from "stem to stern" with a quarter facing shot. It does have all you want and need in power.
However, It is HEAVY!
It is LONG!
It is big, and hard to get around with in thick cover, and
It has no "real" BALANCE, IMO.
Also, hunting loads, with heavy conicals, kicks your fool head off. Before season even starts, you develop a flinch. Of course you don't notice any of this when hunting, until after the shot!
Other than that, I love my 1861 Colt Musket in .58cal.
The .54 Hawken w/28", 15/16 barrel represents about my limit in carrying all day.
The smaller .50 cal Penn Hunter, w/33" barrel, is a pure joy for the woods, and is not to long to "swing", yet light enough to pack all day, while balance and pointing is near perfect...for me.
I just wish I felt comfortable hunting Elk with it. The .54 is better for Elk, and the .58 is better yet!
So, the question remains...why don't I hunt more with the Musket?? I don't know.
Just my thoughts. :results:
Russ
tcsmokepole
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RussB, I have a t.c. renegade from the t.c. custom shop. It has inch flats and a 26 inch barrel. You can get one in 50,54,or 58 cal. I have two, one in flint and the other percussion, both 58 cal. I carry mine all day hunting with no problem.
RussB
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I've always wanted a rocklock Hawken in .58 w/1" flats, and at the same time wondered how much that puppy might weigh. I can carry mine all day, it's just that because I have a choice, I suspect I choose the lighter rifle because I'm lazy, and these old hills have got a lot steeper as I've gotten older...maybe.
Congratulations on owning two mighty fine rifles, IMO.
Russ
I recently bid on another .58 Zouave replica cause I sort of miss them. They really do very well with patched round balls and I did not think that the carbine or the Zouave was unweildy to handle. They are pleasant to shoot and very dependable. The carbine had simply terrible sights. I guess those Rebs just rode up close before firing. The Zouave was better but it fired to the right by nearly a six inches at 100 yards. No allowance for sight adjustment My Great-great Grandpappy was a cook at Gettysburg for the Union. Story is he was carrying a quarter of beef across an open area behind the lines back to camp, several hundred yards from the Reb lines. He felt a thump and when he got back they dug a Mini ball out of the beef quarter. I guess that old Reb had the sights figured out.
JackAubrey
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Hello Crocket, I have to agree w/ several of the respondants. The average person on the "frontier" did not have a particularly thick wallet, esspecially a returning CW vet. Now that I am married my wallet has more moths in it than bucks.For a centrefire rifle I hunt w/ a WW2 surplus .303 British Enfield,cost me $90.00. Took an 8 point whitetail w /it.The more things change, the more they stay the same. Alot of the Union boys took their Springfields home.I hunt blackpowder more and more.I will be hunting w/ my 1861 Springfield soon.
Rat
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Well I finally recieved my 1861, and got about two weeks of hunting with it. With season coming to a close I wanted a bit more range than with Bloody Bess, and although I also recieved my Jaeger I'm still oiling the stock, and have not had time to sight it in, and really wanted to get some experience shooting it before I took it hunting.
Anyhow, my fresh impressions on hunting with a full length musket is this:
I got used to the weight, length and balence very quickly, and found it to be a comfortable rifle to carry all day. Also found that the rifle holds VERY steady when holding it off hand on a target...which seems to be a function of it's....weight, length, and balence!! I found it carries well if you just carry it a bit different than a lighter shorter rifle.
I think that if you really like these rifles, like I do, they carry and handle fine. I guess that if you are kind of so-so or luke warm on them, then they will spend most of thier time at the range. But these last two weeks or so I really enjoyed hunting with the '61, and didn't feel anymore tired at the end of the day than when I pack Bess around, which only weighs 8.25 pounds.
Rat
Anyhow, my fresh impressions on hunting with a full length musket is this:
I got used to the weight, length and balence very quickly, and found it to be a comfortable rifle to carry all day. Also found that the rifle holds VERY steady when holding it off hand on a target...which seems to be a function of it's....weight, length, and balence!! I found it carries well if you just carry it a bit different than a lighter shorter rifle.
I think that if you really like these rifles, like I do, they carry and handle fine. I guess that if you are kind of so-so or luke warm on them, then they will spend most of thier time at the range. But these last two weeks or so I really enjoyed hunting with the '61, and didn't feel anymore tired at the end of the day than when I pack Bess around, which only weighs 8.25 pounds.
Rat
Buck Buster
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Killed a 93 lb. doe with my 1863 Springfield this evening shooting a Hornady 525 grain Great Plains bullet. This is the first deer that I've taken with it. I usually hunt with my .54 Renegade when I primitive hunt. The Springfield is a little awkward to hunt with when hunting out of trees.
Boy, that Great Plains bullet weighed almost as much as the deer. ::Guess that's why you guys get such a long season. takes a lot of deer that size to fill a freezer. :crackup: :crackup:
Guys -- I have to put my two cents in here -- I hunted for the first time this season with my .58 on game, got two nice whitetails with it this fall using swaged mini approx 470 grain. Have shot quite a few with the .54 in past seasons, both with ball and minis, definitely no shortage of kill power with that cal. Yes the .58 is more than is needed for even the largest of whitetails or most north american game, but better over than under gunned. And not every shot hits exactly where we intend. Even when really close a relatively slower big slug does not destroy a lot of meat, one of the deer was only 35 yards from me. The frontal head on shot into the chest, angled down from tree stand, went through some flesh but didn't do as much meat damage as I thought it would, being that close. But on the other hand that already big .58 diameter slug, even if it doesn't flatten out much on impact still leaves a nice consistent wound channel to bleed out , from both entry and exit. I have to say I look forward to being out in the bush next fall with her, and would really love to get an elk with it. :m2c: :thumbsup:
smokeblower
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I passed a Euroarms Zouave to my son this year. I have taken deer with it the past four years using thin skirt minis and REAL's. I scored my first deer with a Armisport .69 1842 Springfield smoothie this year, I was as proud of it as my first deer. Darn what a hole a .69 patch roundball and 95 grains of Goex 2f makes. No wonder those Civil War guys lost arms and legs. If I can figure out how to load and shoot a bowling ball I will move up to a higher bore.
Guest
Yeah- the 14 bore really flattens them. Mine sure did.
Crockett:
Hundreds, if not thousands, of guys use CW-era muskets and carbines for deer. In .58-cal. muzzleloaders, the Cook & Brother, Enfield Musketoon and CSRichmond carbines all are handy woods guns. And that's not to mention items like the .54-cal. Sharps breechloader percussion, or the .50-cal. Smiths and Maynards. Even up to the two-banders -- Zouaves, Enfields, artillery Springfields, Whitneys -- the CW originals' and replicas' basic designs makes them darn good deer guns.
And you don't need a lot of powder. Forty-five to 60 grains of 3f will do all the damage you need to a whitetail carcass. the trick is in working up an accurate load. These guns are highly individualistic, and it takes some experimentation to find the bullet/powder combo that shoots best.
Drop over to the North-South Skirmish Assn. bulletin board, at http://www.n-ssa.org/bb/index.php and ask the question. You'll meet a lot o' CW percussion hunters. ::
Hundreds, if not thousands, of guys use CW-era muskets and carbines for deer. In .58-cal. muzzleloaders, the Cook & Brother, Enfield Musketoon and CSRichmond carbines all are handy woods guns. And that's not to mention items like the .54-cal. Sharps breechloader percussion, or the .50-cal. Smiths and Maynards. Even up to the two-banders -- Zouaves, Enfields, artillery Springfields, Whitneys -- the CW originals' and replicas' basic designs makes them darn good deer guns.
And you don't need a lot of powder. Forty-five to 60 grains of 3f will do all the damage you need to a whitetail carcass. the trick is in working up an accurate load. These guns are highly individualistic, and it takes some experimentation to find the bullet/powder combo that shoots best.
Drop over to the North-South Skirmish Assn. bulletin board, at http://www.n-ssa.org/bb/index.php and ask the question. You'll meet a lot o' CW percussion hunters. ::
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