Musket sightless sight picture?

[pepperbelly]

This past weekend when I tried out my 1777 Charleville musket again I am getting stumped by something.
Since there is no rear sight I am having trouble imagining what the sight picture should look like.
I have tried "sighting" over the breech with the top of the breech as level with my eye as possible. In other words I can't see the breech. If I lift my head a little I would be able to see the top of the breech, but my eye isn't so low that the top is hidden- it's sort of just barely above the breech end.
I have tried the front "sight" being barely visible and with it fully above the breech.
I was still shooting low. I haven't measured yet but I was hitting about 3" below my point of aim at 25 yards.
I think I should hold my head a little higher, and I can figure out out by trial and error, but is there a general rule of thumb I can go by?
I would like to have an idea of what it's supposed to look like so I can also figure out how bad my flinch is.

Thanks,
Jim

 

[MercerLake]

:v To eliminate the "flinch" factor, I'd recommend bench resting to determine just where the gun is shooting with your sight picture. Support near the muzzle and under the rear of the stock with solid sand bags. Just supporting near the midpoint of the gun will not tell you if you truly have the "flinch". "Flinch" can be cured!!!
:v

 

[Many Klatch]

On my Bess, I have an enlarged screw head on the tang screw. I took out the original one and I put in a large slotted screw. I line the screw slot up so it makes a "rear reference point". My sight picture is to first center the front sight with the rear sight, that way I know I have that axis taken care of. Then I show 1/2 of the front sight above the back of the barrel. Then it's on and I pull the trigger.

Many Klatch

 

[Grenadier1758]

One of the first things to understand about smoothbores is that there is no rule of thumb, unless it is that when you hold your thumb very firmly against the stoct, the ball will move in the direction the thumb is pushing.

Now to get serious, you are getting the balls to impact in more or less a group and it is low. This seems reasonable since you are sighting along the barrel. I have found in my Long Land Pattern Bess and my light fowler, you have to see some of the barrel between the breech and the front lug or sight. Yes the rear sight is your eye and you raise or lower the impact at the target by raising or lowering your eye. It is normal to see some of the barrel when you are pointing a smoothbore. The other choice is to bend the barrel, but that seems to be too extreme for what you are describing.

Soon you will learn that it is the cheek on the stock for short ranges or the lower tooth line for longer ranges. I use the slot in the tang bolt as an indicator for the rear of the breech. It is easier to line up the eye to the lug by looking over that slot in the bolt. I always line up that slot with the barrel.

Those big military muskets will often have a fairly large touch hole. You should probably drill yours out to 1/16". If you need to, then you can go up to 5/64". I have a set of number drills to get the diameters between 0.062 and 0.078". A number 50 drill measures 0.070"

I think you are doing pretty good with your purchase so far.

 

[Britsmoothy]

In the past I have welded some hex bar cut from a key wrench on to a compaterble srew replacement for the tang and ground it and shaped it to a height that it acts as a rear sight. It takes some work, especially the shooting tests but may help you rather than guessing each shot. I have heard of metal banding being drilled to be held by the tang screw and bent at one end to fabricate a rear sight, I would use something a bit thicker my self but you could fashion a pattern this way :hmm:

 

[mazo kid]

I have heard of some smoothbore matches where muskets are held to strict authenticity and anything resembling a rear sight will disqualify the gun, even a screw slot. Other matches are more lax in that respect. Depending on your use, it may benefit you to learn to shoot the gun with and without a "sight".

 

[mike alexandre]

To try and seperate your problems, I'll put some answers to you in seperate paragraphs.
Read the long list at the begining of the Flintlock thread, theres loads of good advise on curing flinching.
Your head needs to be on the stock in the same place EVERY time, its the front end of the barrel you will need to move up or down, left or right - not your head.
Your lucky that your fireing a Charly because you have barrel bands. When you look down the barrel you will notice that the more up elevation you give the front end of the barrel - the more barrel band you can see. Pick on one particular band with your eye and see the amount of height on band which appears as you raise or lower the front end of the musket.
With all this going on - remember Front sight Front sight Front sight, cause thats what needs to be on the target.

 

[pepperbelly]

Mike, thanks for the tips on using the barrel bands. That will give me a starting place. I had been sighting flat down the breech and trying to raise the front sight, but I couldn't get enough elevation . I last actually had the base of the front sight even with the breech flat.

Jim

 

[Teleoceras]

Pepperbelly:

I just wanted to encourage you to keep it up! It sounds like you are learning at a good pace. I have little doubt that you'll be shooting your smoothie right where you want her to shoot. :thumbsup:

Trust me, At one point, I only had rifles, now I have about 75% smoothbores with my girls. They are a challenge and they are ADDICTING!

Slowmatch Forever!
Teleoceras

 

[pepperbelly]

Am I trying too hard to aim this musket? Since there is no rear sight do I need to just point it, or do I need to work on using what there is for a sight?
I understand the originals were used for volley fire, but Wellington isn't likely to invade Texas any time soon. I will take it hunting as soon as I can be sure of placing my shots accurately. I would hate to think it's just an expensive noisemaker. If I take it pig hunting I really need to be sure it hits with the first shot. If it doesn't I will be too busy trying to climb a tree to reload. I work in the public works department of a medium size city, and my animal control guys captured a 400 pound pig in town last week. It was sorta in a bad mood, and those tusks were wicked.

Jim

 

[B. Miller]

I am really hesitant to reply to this because my smoothbore experience is very limited. I am shooting a NSW Officers Fusil. Two times out and I am still working on it. At 25 yards out from sand bags I was able to get a 3 inch group with cloth patches and a slightly less than a 4 inch group one damn flier with lubed paper cartridges using the tang bolt as my rear refrence. I was using a 25 yd pistol target. I have seen guys that know their smoothbore put a orange mark at their sight refrence point along the barrel. I just don't know this thing well enough to mark my barrel.
Bruce

 

[paulvallandigham]

Jim: There are two things that a rear sight helps you do to " aim " a gun: 1. It helps with windage problems; 2 it helps with elevation problems. This is compared to just mounting the gun to your face any old way and hoping for the best!

If you align the screwslot on your tang screw, closest to the breech, if there are two, You can look OVER that slot, but keep it in the bottom of your peripheral vision to make sure your barrel is not canted, and you are not going to shoot it off to one side or another of the target. Using markers- it can be a spot of point, or even a scratch on the barrel, or as suggested, one of the barrel bands, to align with the front bayonet lug will give you a reference for elevation.

Are you going to shoot one hole groups at 50 yards off-hand? Probably not. But you should be able to to get down to shooting 3" groups at that distance on a pretty regular basis with practice.

If you have ever fired a trap shotgun that has a center bead, and learned how to align and stack that bead with the front bead to improve pattern location( POI vs. POA--I know, We Point shotguns, and don't aim them, but I am addressing a rifleman), the principles are the same. The fact that your first groups string vertically ONLY indicates that you have the windage problems pretty well in hand. You also seem to have figured out how to focus solely on the front site, and probably an imaginary line down the middle of that front bayonet lug, that looks more like a house, than a front sight when you look down the barrel at it. I think all you really need to do is settle on a load that give you the best groups, and then figure out how much barrel to be looking over to put the groups where you want them to go.

Put put a big piece of paper, put a " sighter " someplace on it, and then pick a consistent hold and " sight picture " when shooting from the bench, so that you can first shoot for groups. It doesn't matter where the group strikes; you are looking to get the smallest group possible.

Next, decide what you have to do to get that group close to where you are aiming that sight. When you are looking down the barrel, you can lower that front sight to the point it disappears below the first barrel band. The groups should shoot low when this is done. If they still are shooting high, you may need to solder on some metal to the top of the sight, ( or some people saw or cut a groove in the lug, and fit a thin blade to be the higher front sight) Generally, the slots in Bayonets will allow greater height on the lug.

If the groups are low, then raise up the front sight in increments to see how much movement the raise gives to the groups. You may want to blacken the back of the lug so that you can use a scribe, or knife edge, or a pencil to draw a line across the lug to give you a height reference to put on top of a barrel band. Then its merely a function of trial and error before you figure out how much, or how little the lug has to appear above the barrel band to put your group on target.

The best shooters shoot only that one gun, and memorize their holds for different distances. They can do amazingly well at shooting round balls out of smoothbores, at various ranges, mostly because they practice with that gun all the time. Its not quite the same as shooting a traditional Stick bow, but its close.

 

[mike alexandre]

Welcome to the Forum and dont be nervous, theres no need. I've been shooting a NSW Officers Bess for 3 years now and its a cracker. Re putting a mark on the barrel - have you considered using paper correction fluid - we call it tipex. You need a mark about 12 inches up from the breech.

Your Bess is calpable of shooting this at 50 yds - no rest.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Pepperbelly, you stick at it as when you get that pig apart from the shakes you will have a grin from ear to ear.
Your head/eye is the rear sight now, can your cheek or jaw have a referance point on the stock with your eye lighning up on as said a barrel band and the front bead/sight?
Good luck Sir.

 

[Rob Dinwiddie]

Pepperbelly,

I think you'll really enjoy that old smokepole when you grow used to its likes and dislikes. Back in the 80's I shot alot of smoothbore matches and won several. The .69's and .74's were similarly accurate and were capable of consistant hits on targets the size of pie plates at 50 yards. Winners regularly hit the bulls eyes (the size of a baseball) at that distance. Now I mostly hunt with mine but you can load anything in them. Birdshot, Buckshot, round balls all fly true and can be made to pattern well from these long bores.

As far as aiming, you're getting good advice here. Find where your comfortable cheek rest is and always stick to that position. I also think that years of shooting arrows and blowgun darts helped me to line up horizontally without thinking but it took some time to overcome the high/low issues you are facing. One thing is for sure, the more you shoot the better it gets.

If you have access to some, you might try some fg powder. I've been shooting it a good bit lately. I have a good bit left from artillery use. It's not what most recommend (ffg) but is slower burning (safer pressures) and so gives a more progressive push to the ball. It reduces recoil as well and my accuracy has improved. You can shoot more with less battering. I was afraid it would burn less completely and cause more fouling but in those long barrels it burns up and I can't tell any difference when shooting and wiping or cleaning afterward. I wish you were nearby I'd loan you a pound.

Best wishes,

Capn D

 

[Coot]

....... If I take it pig hunting I really need to be sure it hits with the first shot. If it doesn't I will be too busy trying to climb a tree to reload. I work in the public works department of a medium size city, and my animal control guys captured a 400 pound pig in town last week. It was sorta in a bad mood, and those tusks were wicked.

Jim

If you practice shooting with the bayonet in place, you shouldn't need to climb any trees! :grin:

 

[pepperbelly]

....... If I take it pig hunting I really need to be sure it hits with the first shot. If it doesn't I will be too busy trying to climb a tree to reload. I work in the public works department of a medium size city, and my animal control guys captured a 400 pound pig in town last week. It was sorta in a bad mood, and those tusks were wicked.

Jim

If you practice shooting with the bayonet in place, you shouldn't need to climb any trees! :grin:

Ahh man, I don't have a bayonet. From the pics I have seen of the one for this Charleville it might be a match for those old boars. I would really rather hit '[em first though! :grin:

Jim

 

[Teleoceras]

Capn D:

If you have access to some, you might try some fg powder. I've been shooting it a good bit lately. I have a good bit left from artillery use. It's not what most recommend (ffg) but is slower burning (safer pressures) and so gives a more progressive push to the ball. It reduces recoil as well and my accuracy has improved. You can shoot more with less battering. I was afraid it would burn less completely and cause more fouling but in those long barrels it burns up and I can't tell any difference when shooting and wiping or cleaning afterward. I wish you were nearby I'd loan you a pound.

I'm the same way. I've had better results with Fg and use it for all of my long barrel musket bore smoothies.

The cleanup isn't so bad with the coarser powders since I don't have to deal with rifling grooves.

Slowmatch Forever!
Teleoceras

 

[B. Miller]

justmike,
I am going to try your tipex. What ball and load are you using.
Thanks,
Bruce

 

[mike alexandre]

B.Miller. My Bess is a .660 cal -yours may be different as the bore size changed about a year ago. I'm using 85 grains of FFg. On top of that is a thick felt wad with Wonderlube 1000 soaked in. Then a patch 1.5 dia .020 thick which is microwaved in Stumpies Moose snot. The Ball is .640 and I have to tap it with a rubber hammer to start. After that it loads with an aluminum range rod. I can shoot a string of 15 shots without cleaning in any normal temps. I find a pick in the touch hole before loading helps ignition.