Muzzle loader vs blackpowder

[jmckenney]

KTW: As I said get it in writing because the judge will want to see it. Just goes to show that different individuals will read the law differently. Hq DNR says no, one field officer says yes, what does the next officer standing in your face with you holding a smoking C&B revolver during Muzzleloader season say as he pulls out his citation book???
It's called officer discretion I suppose but the way I read the game laws is quite literal: Book says Muzzleloading Season and to me that means it must load from the muzzle, not the cylinder face, not the breech.
Do what you want during muzzle loader season but I for one will not be carrying anything that doesn't load from the muzzle with black powder/or substitute.
PS: Do you want your soap on a rope or without for that overnighter in the county facility.

 

[graybeard]

The current Michigan hunting guide says during the Muzzleloading deer seasons you can carry and use "only a muzzleloading rifle, a muzzleloading shotgun, or a black power (sic) handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute." Sounds like a cap and ball revolver is legal. I hope so. I've been carrying one for years. :thumbsup: graybeard

 

[jmckenney]

Graybeard, when I queried the Mi. DNR with the question: Is a black powder revolver considered a muzzle loader since you load the chambers and not the muzzle of the firearm?? I got the following response

Response (Jaqueline Waber) - 08/11/2005 09:57 AM
From: [email protected]

2) The revolver is not considered a muzzleloader because it is not loaded from the muzzle.

 

[graybeard]

Wonderful! Isn't a bureacracy grand? The handbook plainly says a "black powder handgun" is legal and someone in the Lansing office says it isn't I wonder if that woman knows what a cap and ball revolver is. :youcrazy: Guess I'd better try to get a definitive answer, although I have a CPL and presumably can carry the ML Colt replica under that. Thanks for the heads up. graybeard

 

[jmckenney]

Yur velcome Graybeard. Of course you can carry it openly or concealed but I read the law quite literal,

Muzzle Loader Season

. Thus I wouldn't use the cap and ball revolver to take nor do a coup de gras as they techniquely are not "muzzle loaders". If you find out otherwise please advise.

 

[ktw]

The handbook plainly says a "black powder handgun" is legal and someone in the Lansing office says it isn't...

If you go back and re-read 54hawkens post you will notice that he did not ask her if a cap-and-ball revolver was legal to use during the muzzleloader season. He asked her if it was a muzzleloader (it's not, by any definition of the word). He only assumed, based on the name of the season, that muzzleloaders were the only legal weapons that could be used during Michigan's muzzleloader season.

If his assumption (that name of the season trumps any wording in the regulations) was correct it would also be illegal to use muzzleloading rifles and centerfire handguns during deer season in the shotgun zone on the grounds that they aren't shotguns...

-ktw

 

[No Deer]

Check out[url] MichiganSportsman.com[/url] or more specifically this thread on that site:
[url] http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=116006[/url]

This, to me, adds more confusion. Read the posts by boehr, he says he is a DNR officer (Lt. Ray Boehringer, at the Plainwell District Office who is the District Supervisor for DNR Law Division.) in Michigan.

He claims that you could take a .44magnum loaded with black powder cartridges and legaly use it for hunting during muzzleloading season.

 

[bezoar]

Well dont trust that DNR person. Hunting with a cartridge weapon of any sort during muzzleloading season for deer will get the gun cosnficated, a 1500 dollar fine for each animal shot because youd be legally poaching.

 

[jmckenney]

KTW: thats because the shotgun area does allow specific exceptions that are spelled out.

All Firearm Deer Seasons-Shotgun Zone
In the shotgun zone, all hunters afield from November 15-30, and all deer hunters in this zone during other deer seasons, must abide by the following firearm restrictions or use a bow and arrow. Crossbows are legal to use by a person 14 years of age or older during the November 15-30 firearm deer season. Legal firearms are as follows:

A shotgun may have a smooth or rifled barrel and may be of any gauge.
A muzzleloading rifle or black powder handgun must be loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.
A conventional (smokeless powder) handgun must be .35 caliber or larger and loaded with straight-walled cartridges and may be single- or multiple-shot but cannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel and magazine combined.

I know you have referenced a ?Boehr on the Michigan Sportsman forum that says he is a Mi. conservation officer, he says you can use a black powder loaded cartridge handgun during muzzle loader season. I'd rather believe a response directly from MiDNR.gov than from some unkown individual purporting to be a CO and posting what I believe to be the wrong information. Again, I'll make the statement: Unless the Conservation Officer is standing infront of me making the statement and willing to sign and date it personally it's not worth a hill of beans in a court of law.

Muzzleloading Deer Seasons
During the December muzzleloading seasons, muzzleloading deer hunters can use only a muzzleloading rifle or muzzleloading shotgun or black power handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.

Why would the regulation state Muzzleloading season, then go on to state 'Muzzleloading rifle or muzzleloading shotgun' and not state any black powder firing handgun or revolver, or revolving cylinder black powder firing rifle? To me the intent and purpose of the muzzle loading season, is just that-for muzzle loaders.
KTW, you can fall into the baited trap but don't lead anyone else there. Better yet, you contact DNR Hq and ask the specific question you think I didn't ask then post their entire response here.

 

[ktw]

KTW, you can fall into the baited trap but don't lead anyone else there. Better yet, you contact DNR Hq and ask the specific question you think I didn't ask then post their entire response here.

I already have. I understand what the law says, and how it's enforced. I also do not carry a handgun during the muzzleloading season - a matter of personal choice rather than a matter of fear over ambiguity in the regulations. I contemplated doing so at one time, but ended up buying a Lyman GPR instead.

I do agree with you on the point that no one should take your or my word for it, simply because we posted something here on this forum. I encourage anyone who has a question as to what the law is to take it directly to the MIDNR.

Feel free to come back and post the answer that they gave you when you've done that. :thumbsup:

On the 'other' forum the user Boehr is Lt. Ray Boehringer a MIDNR Law Enforcement District Supervisor. He moderates a forum there called Questions About Michigan Hunting and Fishing Law. You are welcome call the DNR's Plainfield District Office at any time and check out his authenticity. Or not, as you see fit.

-ktw

 

[jmckenney]

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KTW/Graybeard, I should have a definitive answer to resolve the question in a few days.

 

[Robert58]

In Texas the Hunting Annual says, a cap and ball revolver or rifle that has a removable cylinder is not a Muzzleloader.

Robert

 

[graybeard]

All: I can't get through to the Lansing enforcement HQ but our local guy in Twin Lake says he reads the book as saying that any "handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute" is legal. That would include a cap and ball revolver or a black powder cartridge handgun. He also said anyone with a CPL can carry most any handgun. He said the book clearly says "muzzleloading" before rifle and shotgun, but only says "black powder handgun" I guess I wouldn't carry a replica of a revolving rifle. I am going to carry a cap and ball pistol and a copy of the DNR book with me unless I hear differently. graybeard

 

[jmckenney]

Must be there is some discussion going on in Lansing over my question as I haven't received a response in over a week.

 

[graybeard]

Same here. I called and left a message and haven't heard back in a week. graybeard

 

[Maynerd62411]

Illinois specifys foot pounds in it's regulations and a black powder revolver just doesn't have enough. This year, single shot BP pistols are not allowed either. They can produce the required 500 f/lbs. at the muzzle.

 

[jmckenney]

2 weeks and I still haven't heard a word out of Lansing. On past questions I have posed an answer was given in 2-3 days, the DNR site says 10 day.I am beginning to think there is an OOPS in the regulations and next year there will be a clarification. Until then we are into the Muzzleloader season and nobody wants to admit an error.

 

[graybeard]

I know it's kind of late, but I just met a DNR C.O. in the field today and he assured me a cap and ball revolver was legal. Or at least he wouldn't give me a ticket for it. :thumbsup: graybeard

 

[msbcomputer]

A few years back I was hunting in Se lower michigan with a 50 cal rifle and I also had my 44 cal cap n ball revolver as a sidearm. I was stopped by a CO who was checking licenses and asked for license and my "safety inspection" card. After looking at them both he said "good luck and have a good day".

 

[TFoley]

Interesting little posit, there, that a black powder handgun must produce 500 ft lbs muzzle energy. Can anybody please tell me precisely how many BP handguns actually DO produce 500 ft lbs muzzle energy?

A Colt Walker replica, stoked up with 45gr of FFg [mine, to be exact] shoot a RB, exiting the barrel at around 1125 fps.

This gives me a m/e of 415 ft lbs...well short of the 500 ft lbs needed. At 25 yards that has dropped to less than 320 ft lbs.

I guess that shooting the conical bullet might just make it, especially in the Ruger Old Army...but that piece, to my mind, is hardly in the spirit of traditional BP hunting.

My $0.02.

tac