Muzzle velocity Hawken vs Longrifle

[oblaze]

Hey all,

I've been doing some research online but I can't seem to find any meaningful information on the matter.

I have been trying to figure out what kind of muzzle velocity you can expect out of a similar caliber/powder charge Hawken rifle vs a Longrifle. I understand there are many varieties of each and I'm asking kind of a vague question, but a vague answer will satisfy.

Basically wondering what % increase you get from the extra barrel length/time for powder to burn, if any at all? Is a Hawken long enough to burn all the powder?

Thanks!

 

[SDSmlf]

Hey all,

I've been doing some research online but I can't seem to find any meaningful information on the matter.

I have been trying to figure out what kind of muzzle velocity you can expect out of a similar caliber/powder charge Hawken rifle vs a Longrifle. I understand there are many varieties of each and I'm asking kind of a vague question, but a vague answer will satisfy.

Basically wondering what % increase you get from the extra barrel length/time for powder to burn, if any at all? Is a Hawken long enough to burn all the powder?

Thanks!

First off, welcome to the forum from Western North Carolina.

As far a determining percentage increase (guessing you are looking at velocity) in various barrel lengths, actual range time with a chronograph is the best method, although programs are out there that make calculations, but believe you would want to confirm their predictions. There are variables besides barrel length, things like powder manufacturer and granulation, roundball vs conical for example. Below is a link to a program (@chorizo was the most recent to post the link) that I found to be relatively close on velocities with a limited number of loads tested. Maybe a good starting point.
https://www.p-max.uk/cgi-bin/black_powder.cgi

 

[Togo]

Another aspect is percussion vs flintlock as far as FPS. I remember watching a video where the percussion gun was running 300 or so fps faster than the flintlock because of pressure loss.

 

[Daveboone]

Ball size, patching, lube....all will also make a substantial difference.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Hey all,

I've been doing some research online but I can't seem to find any meaningful information on the matter.

I have been trying to figure out what kind of muzzle velocity you can expect out of a similar caliber/powder charge Hawken rifle vs a Longrifle. I understand there are many varieties of each and I'm asking kind of a vague question, but a vague answer will satisfy.

Basically wondering what % increase you get from the extra barrel length/time for powder to burn, if any at all? Is a Hawken long enough to burn all the powder?

Thanks!

Online, oblaze will probably not find much in the way of meaningful information. In the period of 1985 through 1995 lots of information was being published on muzzleloading firearms. One such publication was "The Gun Digest Blackpowder Loading Manual" published in 1995. It contained good information and topics on the care and use of muzzleloading firearms. Specifically there were tables that detailed the performance of 768 loads for 156 blackpowder rifles. There were traditional rifles in percussion and flint along with some in-line rifles and a few black powder cartridge rifles.

Presently the Fourth Edition of the manual is in print and can be found online. It will have the same information as in the Third Edition, which I have and added information primarily on modern muzzle loaders.

Other than the old Lyman Black Powder Manual that all sorts of tables for muzzle velocity and trajectory for various lengths of barrels, there is some specific information on loads and little formulas to provide the % increases based on barrel length and powder to apply to a rifle one would have in their possession.

Few examples are in the Third Edition. Most rifles are half stock in 50 caliber and most long rifles are in 32, 36, or 45. I did find two rifles in 50 caliber, the 1816 Remington and the Mountain State Mountaineer. Both had barrel lengths of 39" and shot round ball of 0.490" diameter using a 100 grain volume measure of FFg GOEX (at that time branded as GOI) powder. Muzzle velocity of the Mountaineer was 1921 feet per Second and the Remington was 1926 feet per second. A representative half stock with a 34" barrel, The New Model Ithaca Hawken using the same round ball and 110 grains volume of FFG GOEX had a muzzle velocity of 1912 feet per second. A Thompson Center Hawken rifle with a 28" barrel had a muzzle velocity of 1456 feet per second. The Lyman Deerstalker with a barrel of 24" using 80 grains of FFG had a muzzle velocity of 1301 feet per second. They didn't use 100 grains of powder in the shorter barrels. One last entry for the Green Mountain drop in 32" barrel using 100 grains of FFG GOEX had a muzzle velocity of 1809 feet per second.

The conclusion is that longer barrels will have more muzzle velocity. The percent change will depend on ball diameter, patch thickness, patch lubrication and quality of the powder.

The loading manuals can be found. The Fourth Edition of 2003 is out there. 20 year old information is better than none, I suppose.

https://www.amazon.com/Gun-Digest-B...k+powder+loading+manual&qid=1698756125&sr=8-4

 

[oblaze]

Online, oblaze will probably not find much in the way of meaningful information. In the period of 1985 through 1995 lots of information was being published on muzzleloading firearms. One such publication was "The Gun Digest Blackpowder Loading Manual" published in 1995. It contained good information and topics on the care and use of muzzleloading firearms. Specifically there were tables that detailed the performance of 768 loads for 156 blackpowder rifles. There were traditional rifles in percussion and flint along with some in-line rifles and a few black powder cartridge rifles.

Presently the Fourth Edition of the manual is in print and can be found online. It will have the same information as in the Third Edition, which I have and added information primarily on modern muzzle loaders.

Other than the old Lyman Black Powder Manual that all sorts of tables for muzzle velocity and trajectory for various lengths of barrels, there is some specific information on loads and little formulas to provide the % increases based on barrel length and powder to apply to a rifle one would have in their possession.

Few examples are in the Third Edition. Most rifles are half stock in 50 caliber and most long rifles are in 32, 36, or 45. I did find two rifles in 50 caliber, the 1816 Remington and the Mountain State Mountaineer. Both had barrel lengths of 39" and shot round ball of 0.490" diameter using a 100 grain volume measure of FFg GOEX (at that time branded as GOI) powder. Muzzle velocity of the Mountaineer was 1921 feet per Second and the Remington was 1926 feet per second. A representative half stock with a 34" barrel, The New Model Ithaca Hawken using the same round ball and 110 grains volume of FFG GOEX had a muzzle velocity of 1912 feet per second. A Thompson Center Hawken rifle with a 28" barrel had a muzzle velocity of 1456 feet per second. The Lyman Deerstalker with a barrel of 24" using 80 grains of FFG had a muzzle velocity of 1301 feet per second. They didn't use 100 grains of powder in the shorter barrels. One last entry for the Green Mountain drop in 32" barrel using 100 grains of FFG GOEX had a muzzle velocity of 1809 feet per second.

The conclusion is that longer barrels will have more muzzle velocity. The percent change will depend on ball diameter, patch thickness, patch lubrication and quality of the powder.

The loading manuals can be found. The Fourth Edition of 2003 is out there. 20 year old information is better than none, I suppose.

https://www.amazon.com/Gun-Digest-B...k+powder+loading+manual&qid=1698756125&sr=8-4

You guys are really great. I've shared this post with a friend. I never imagined a community would be this helpful and interested in their hobby. I am grateful for to be part of this.

 

[oldwood]

Welcome from Pa.. It's tough to decode your question w/o knowing specifically what the use of the type rifle will be , vs caliber. Many tedious pages can be written explaining differences and nuance between long and short barrels , further compounded by different rifling twists , granulation size of black powder , ball size , patching , and lubes. If you can be a little more specific , we can pick appart the science , and opinion needed to answer any further question you might pose. Don't take offence at this comment , we're here to help , using a half century plus of experience ..........oldwood

 

[oldwood]

I may be too old school for your equipment. I have built 160 + custom m/l 's and judge these by performance , and unfortunately muzzle velocity isn't much concidered. Sorry for the lack of information on modern muzzleloaders. I have killed 50+ deer , shot small game , enjoyed competition shooting paper , and steel targets. Again , sorry for my inept answer about modern m/l guns. Please enjoy your experience in m/ling.........oldwood

 

[Johnny Too-Tall]

Tighter the load the slower it goes. Percussions are faster than flintlocks if everything is the exact same. A ton of variable come into play beyond what I mentioned.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

There were no 'arkinses winning at the matches I shot at.
Probably had something to do with all of the elite shooters shooting flintlocks.

 

[oblaze]

There were no 'arkinses winning at the matches I shot at.
Probably had something to do with all of the elite shooters shooting flintlocks.

What do you mean by' arkinses?

 

[oblaze]

I may be too old school for your equipment. I have built 160 + custom m/l 's and judge these by performance , and unfortunately muzzle velocity isn't much concidered. Sorry for the lack of information on modern muzzleloaders. I have killed 50+ deer , shot small game , enjoyed competition shooting paper , and steel targets. Again , sorry for my inept answer about modern m/l guns. Please enjoy your experience in m/ling.........oldwood

Always happy to hear from all schools! Where in PA are ya? I'm in NEPA

 

[Boomerang]

Also keep in mind that a true Hawken style has a heavier barrel and can hold a heavier charge.

 

[waksupi]

The tighter the slower? Gut feeling tells me a tighter load would build more pressure, hence, more velocity.

 

[oblaze]

Also keep in mind that a true Hawken style has a heavier barrel and can hold a heavier charge.

I guess an addendum to my question; I would like to hunt with a long rifle for the frontier lore, I admit I am by no means a historian, but popular culture would have me believe the long rifle was the "real" tool of the frontier for settlers.

Where does the Hawken fit into this? Is there any benefit to carrying a long rifle if the Hawken can hold a greater charge and ostensibly achieve near-peer muzzle velocity to a long rifle?

Any recommendation pro v con for each? I'd like to hear from anyone who is willing.

 

[Boomerang]

The long rifle was more pre 1840 in the eastern woodlands and the Hawken was after that more for western country and Bison. The Hawken is 3 to 4 pounds heavier than the long rifle.

 

[oblaze]

The long rifle was more pre 1840 in the eastern woodlands and the Hawken was after that more for western country and Bison. The Hawken is 3 to 4 pounds heavier than the long rifle.

Thanks, that pretty much answers my question. Sounds like both rifles are fairly similar in performance, main difference being length and weight.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Lots of good replies. But, IMHO, the answers are like too many trees to be able to see the forest. Bottom line for practical purposes is that the difference, if any, is miniscule. The velocity from a 42" barrel compared to a 31" won't make an difference to a dead bambi or sheet of paper with all other factors being equal (e.g.: charge, bore, ball size, patch, lube, how you hold yer mouth, etc.). Choose the style of gun you prefer and caliber/load that suits you best and do yer own thang. Don't sweat the small stuff.

 

[LME]

Hey all,

I've been doing some research online but I can't seem to find any meaningful information on the matter.

I have been trying to figure out what kind of muzzle velocity you can expect out of a similar caliber/powder charge Hawken rifle vs a Longrifle. I understand there are many varieties of each and I'm asking kind of a vague question, but a vague answer will satisfy.

Basically wondering what % increase you get from the extra barrel length/time for powder to burn, if any at all? Is a Hawken long enough to burn all the powder?

Online, oblaze will probably not find much in the way of meaningful information. In the period of 1985 through 1995 lots of information was being published on muzzleloading firearms. One such publication was "The Gun Digest Blackpowder Loading Manual" published in 1995. It contained good information and topics on the care and use of muzzleloading firearms. Specifically there were tables that detailed the performance of 768 loads for 156 blackpowder rifles. There were traditional rifles in percussion and flint along with some in-line rifles and a few black powder cartridge rifles.

Presently the Fourth Edition of the manual is in print and can be found online. It will have the same information as in the Third Edition, which I have and added information primarily on modern muzzle loaders.

Other than the old Lyman Black Powder Manual that all sorts of tables for muzzle velocity and trajectory for various lengths of barrels, there is some specific information on loads and little formulas to provide the % increases based on barrel length and powder to apply to a rifle one would have in their possession.

Few examples are in the Third Edition. Most rifles are half stock in 50 caliber and most long rifles are in 32, 36, or 45. I did find two rifles in 50 caliber, the 1816 Remington and the Mountain State Mountaineer. Both had barrel lengths of 39" and shot round ball of 0.490" diameter using a 100 grain volume measure of FFg GOEX (at that time branded as GOI) powder. Muzzle velocity of the Mountaineer was 1921 feet per Second and the Remington was 1926 feet per second. A representative half stock with a 34" barrel, The New Model Ithaca Hawken using the same round ball and 110 grains volume of FFG GOEX had a muzzle velocity of 1912 feet per second. A Thompson Center Hawken rifle with a 28" barrel had a muzzle velocity of 1456 feet per second. The Lyman Deerstalker with a barrel of 24" using 80 grains of FFG had a muzzle velocity of 1301 feet per second. They didn't use 100 grains of powder in the shorter barrels. One last entry for the Green Mountain drop in 32" barrel using 100 grains of FFG GOEX had a muzzle velocity of 1809 feet per second.

The conclusion is that longer barrels will have more muzzle velocity. The percent change will depend on ball diameter, patch thickness, patch lubrication and quality of the powder.

The loading manuals can be found. The Fourth Edition of 2003 is out there. 20 year old information is better than none, I suppose.

https://www.amazon.com/Gun-Digest-B...k+powder+loading+manual&qid=1698756125&sr=8-4

That information is pretty accurate. I like 80 grains of pyrodex in my 54 cal. Ithaca Hawkin. It has a velocity of 1450 fps plus or minus 12 fps. This is the recommended load for the rifle using a 530 ball. I was watching one of Idaho Lewis,s video where he was using 80 grains of Black powder behind a ball in a 54 cal and his velocities were almost identical as mine?

 

[French Colonial]

I guess an addendum to my question; I would like to hunt with a long rifle for the frontier lore, I admit I am by no means a historian, but popular culture would have me believe the long rifle was the "real" tool of the frontier for settlers.

Where does the Hawken fit into this? Is there any benefit to carrying a long rifle if the Hawken can hold a greater charge and ostensibly achieve near-peer muzzle velocity to a long rifle?

Any recommendation pro v con for each? I'd like to hear from anyone who is willing.

If I was in Pennsylvania and interested in history and MLer's I would be carrying a colonial era long rifle or smoothbore, a Hawken is a west of the Mississippi thing IMHO.