Muzzleloader Builder Supply Dragoons

[rice1817]

Has anybody tried building one of the various Dragoon models offered by this firm? Fitting the stirrup to the grip seems to be a fairly complex operation for the novice builder. Any thoughts?

 

[jimmytheshank]

I bought one of these for my younger brother. Messed it up. It is a beautiful pistol though. Gave the parts to oldarmy for a future project he's gonna do. That buttcap is a challenge and a half believe me.

 

[oldarmy]

If you have never in-letted a butt cap. It will be a challenge.
Here are a few pics of a Kentucky style one.
It takes me at least 8 hours to do one.
You have to bend those tangs outward to get the cap on and then bend the tangs inward to inlet on the dragoon style. :shake:
start

[/img]
Next after many hours

[/img]
finally done

[/img]

 

[Dane]

Yes,

I've built one. Unfortunately, the customer wanted it in steel hardware. Even though the originals were brass. I argued, then bowed to his wishes.

I should have argued longer. Many, many hours to inlet that butt cap. The steel doesn't give enough to spread them, inlet the base, then bend them back in.

Please, do yourself a favor, use the brass.

 

[wulf]

Some years back I made a 22 cal French pocket
pistol with a stirrup butt cap..it was a ......
difficult job. I did get it done but never ever
wanted to try that again...I knew there had to
be a better , easier way because so many were
made in so many countries..I may try it again,
when I have fewer projects..Builders sells guns
that are blank at the butt and lets you fight
the two sides and base......ugh.

 

[oldarmy]

I pulled the steel butt cap out of my "box-o-parts" :grin:
Picked up the wooden blank from Muzzle loading supply. You are right the steel will not bend enough to start with the cap.
The base of the tangs are going have to be cut into the wood first.
Almost done with my southern style LR and waiting for the parts for the next project.
Think I will work on it for awhile.
Looks like a real challenge. Bending that steel back and forth is a good way to work harden it and break the tangs off.

 

[rice1817]

Sheesh! Gotta bend the tangs of the butt cap back and forth multiple times while inletting them? Looks like a good way to have to order new butt caps.

Steel looks "cool" but fortunately brass is more correct and easier to work with....easier being a relative word in this case. I supposed that one could order a "throw away" brass cap, get it inlet by spreading the wings, and then after all inletting is done slide on the steel one....IF they were dimensionally identical. They probably are not.

 

[oldarmy]

I got the butt-cap installed over the last couple of days.
Looks a little rough, but it will clean up with finishing.
This is the first one of this type I have done.
Should have cut the tangs a bit.
The steel casting had a big hole in the butt of it.
That's where the bit wanted to go.
Oh-well, as long as the pistol holds and shoots instinctively.Like you are pointing it with your index finger.
That's good enough for me.
Like that litte wiggle?? :hmm:
fits good in my hand :grin:

[/img]

[/img]

 

[Dane]

Here's a pic of the one I finished last year. Steel stirrups are a real bummer.

Could have been a beauty, with the right lock and hardware.

 

[oldarmy]

That's nice.
Do you have a picture of the other side?
Suzie has some pictures on her web site, but only of the lock side.
The pistol kit is not 100% correct.
A Siler/Germanic style lock on a French Dragoon :hmm:
This is the first one of this style that I have built.
Most of the oops will clean up later.
No worries.

 

[jimmytheshank]

Thats a purdy pistol there Dane, no doubts about it. :hatsoff: I personally think thats a beauty allright, and quite frankly, I think too much empasis is being put on being "correct". I respect the guys who want to be PC. Because I share their love for the tradition. But ya know, whats the point of spending a lot of time and effort on an expensive trade building something PC when what it all boils down to is all you end up doin is COPYING something made before? Where do we get to appreciate your unique vision, your unique workmanship, your......... ART. That's the beauty of CREATING. You make YOUR project the way YOU want it, with YOUR vision, YOUR sweat, YOUR tears, and make a GENUINE work of art that YOU can be PROUD of. I've never been one to follow the crowd I admit, AND THANK GOODNESS. I hate to see guys belittle themselves for EXCELLENT work that theyve done. So ya got a Siler lock on a Dragoon. .................BIG Friggin' Deal. It still looks AWESOME!!! Kicks the pants off any of those foreign made blow-up-in-your-face rejects. I mean think about it. This is 2008. Pretend there is NO such thing as modern weaponry, and we still had to use blackpowder arms today. Would you honestly care what EVERYBODY else had? Would you go to the riflesmith and say "It HAS to be this part and this part or it doesnt fit in with what everyone else had 200 years ago "? I dont think so. You'd want something that works, is reliable, and dressed up as plain or fancy as YOU want it. Hmmmmmmmmm............gee, wasnt that the same logic a rifleman used 200 years ago? Food for thought. :hmm: Dane, you and oldarmy keep right on creating..........I for one,like what I see. :thumbsup:

 

[Dane]

Like I said before.... the customer supplied the parts. Steel hardware, and a Siler lock. Tried to talk him out of it, but to no avail.

A germanic lock, on an English pistol, with steel hardware.

Oh well.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The whole point of building one of these kits IS to duplicate the original pistol as closely as possible. Period or historical correctness is of value to a great many of the people on this forum because TRADITION is important to many of us. It is about the history. Those who re-enact have a need for accurate reproductions. No one is disputing the quality of the workmanship. It is a fine pistol--but the Germanic lock stands out to a knowledgeable person like a wart on Angelina Jolie's nose would. That you do not care at all about tradition or historical accuracy has been made clear in several of your posts and you certainly have a right to your opinion. You ought ought to get together with Toby Bridges--he has no respect for the old traditions either.

 

[dlpowell]

Shank,

I totally agree. I'm building a colonial fowler with steel hardware and a Siler lock. Members here thank I should have just thrown my money because it ain't pc. They say no fowler was ever made with steel and a german/ siler type lock. Wrong!
close up
fowler cira 165-1780

 

[oldarmy]

The comment about Toby Bridges was a little harsh. :v
We are still building flintlocks with a patched round ball and fixed iron sights.
The French Dragoon "kit" that I received from Shank
had the siler provided by the supplier.
MLBS. Suzy knows that the lock is incorrect.
My guess is that there isn't a "correct lock" available.
The only French locks that I can find are for the
Tulle Fusil-de-Chasse. They seem a little big for the pistol.

 

[Robert Egler]

The whole point of building one of these kits IS to duplicate the original pistol as closely as possible. Period or historical correctness is of value to a great many of the people on this forum because TRADITION is important to many of us. It is about the history. Those who re-enact have a need for accurate reproductions. No one is disputing the quality of the workmanship. It is a fine pistol--but the Germanic lock stands out to a knowledgeable person like a wart on Angelina Jolie's nose would. That you do not care at all about tradition or historical accuracy has been made clear in several of your posts and you certainly have a right to your opinion. You ought ought to get together with Toby Bridges--he has no respect for the old traditions either.

It is possible to have respect for traditions at various levels. It is also possible to have great respect for traditions and still make your gun the way you want. He likes his gun, and I doubt he'll try and pass it off as an accurate reproduction, so where's the problem?

 

[Dane]

Caywood has a couple of nice French Pistol locks available on their site.

The PC arguement will continue on forever.

There will always be the "what if" arguement.

The only exception to the "what if" arguement, is military weapons. Made by specific people, with specific patterns, in a specific style, out of specific materials.

I look at it like this.....

If I'm going to spend 100+ hours working on a gun, putting my heart into it, I want it to be the best it can be.
I want the owner to be able to show it off, and not have someone say..... the original English dragoons had brass hardware.

That's a pretty tough blow on the ego. $1000 in a pistol that's not"right".

 

[jimmytheshank]

Well, I can see your very passionate about PC weaponry Russ, as I'm sure many others are as well. And Like I've always stated before, I RESPECT the guys who prefer PC weaponry , clothing, accoutrements, etc.Never said you guys were wrong. We all have our opinions, and I'm no different. But I stop myself at saying that my opinion is the only right one. It aint, and I admit it. La Longue Carabine wanted to know how hard the Euro-style buttcap is to inlet. It's hard. But the end result is a beautiful work of art. And thats what's most important I believe, and really the whole point of this post. It was not my point to start an issue long argued over many years, but to give those who put their heart into a craft the praise and admiration they deserve regardless if the weapon made is PC or not. I also firmly believe that just because a rifle is not PC doesnt mean we are nescessarily trampling on the tradition of those whose craftsmanship inspired us to love the sport in the first place. Rather, I think it inspires those who build these guns to let their imagination expand to make these guns not just a firearm,....but a work of art, OF THEIR OWN MAKING. Just so ya'll know, I really do love the tradition of muzzleloading. I only have one modern gun and thats a Sig P226 Navy. I love that gun. But I feel much more comfortable with muzzleloaders. Thats how much I love this stuff.So no, I DO NOT trample on the traditions. I just dont limit myself when it comes to it. I have a Lehigh being built for me with a 48" barrel and polished furniture. I have a knife on order that a Musso-style Bowie. I have a pistol I bought from oldarmy that's early Kentucky, and if I ever can get to it, I plan on making a Lakota Plains Indian deerskin shirt for myself and some moccasins.But I'll be wearing my Levi's. I admit, NONE of these things are PC together. But who am I hurting? The debate will go on forever, but I for one really could care less about getting involved. If I like something I see, then I give credit to those who made it for what I like. And if I like it enough, and can afford it , I'll buy it. Just like Dane's or oldarmy's pistols. Or now that I think about. that beautiful brass-barreled 48" rifle. I just saw recently posted. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.And those who build or buy these guns should be respected for their choice whether it's PC or not. Fair enough? :thumbsup:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Shank,

I totally agree. I'm building a colonial fowler with steel hardware and a Siler lock. Members here thank I should have just thrown my money because it ain't pc. They say no fowler was ever made with steel and a german/ siler type lock. Wrong!
close up
fowler cira 165-1780

Don, what you have pictured is probably a New England Fowler built from an old French musket, essentially a parts gun. A Germanic lock could be used in a case like this and be totally correct.
But, on the other hand a British dragoon with a Siler lock is a bit over the top. This gun could have been far closer to correct with chambers queen ann pistol lock. Unbridle the frizzen on Jim's queen anne and you'd be hot to go. I can't figure why anybody would go to the lengths it requires to get a pistol kit on the market then put a German lock in it when a more appropriate lock is available on the market. :youcrazy:

 

[Dane]

Well said Mr Brooks.

:applause: