Muzzleloaders and firearm laws

[stewart.leach]

Watched one of the Game Warden shows. Warden cut apart a shot shell to see if it was lead or steel shot.
He DID ask if the shooter had a receipt showing if he bought lead or steel shot shells.

In the early days of non-lead shot for migratory birds and waterfowl Colorado game wardens would carry a magnet to test for steel shot. That would not work now, for other metals are in use. My most recent box of goose loads for the gun I will not mention here state on the side of the plastic shell body that the shot is bismuth. Not a bad idea to tuck the receipt in the box or vest.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Maybe not quite on point, but: I read a post earlier in which the member mentioned loading his shotgun with lead shot. Don't know where he is from let alone his applicable law. Lead is a no no here.
I have heard of Game Commission officers examining hunters' shot shells. Has anyone had a warden ask you to pull the load from your ML for a look see?

Since when is lead shot outlawed in Pennsylvania for anything other than waterfowl?

 

[Mike in FL]

I am retired LEO. It is a myth that game wardens/conservation officers have more authority than other cops. They do not. They all are subject to limitations set forth in the U.S. Constitution which guards the citizenry against unreasonable search and seizure. The fact that many believe they have such power might cause some officers to act illegally. I hope not. They are trained professionals and know what their job is as well as the limitations. They MUST have probable cause to search, to open your cooler or uncover items concealed from their view. That said, perhaps their probable cause is less than you think. Don't forget they must show that PC in court in order to obtain a conviction. Blood, fish scales, hair, etc in your truck bed, on a tarp or cooler or your hands or clothes is sufficient. ALWAYS comply. Don't argue. Never tell them what the law is or how your rights disallow his actions. That will not deter him and it may encourage him to look further. Cooperation is always best. You will have plenty of opportunity to challenge his actions later.

 

[Old Hawkeye]

I am retired LEO. It is a myth that game wardens/conservation officers have more authority than other cops. They do not. They all are subject to limitations set forth in the U.S. Constitution which guards the citizenry against unreasonable search and seizure. The fact that many believe they have such power might cause some officers to act illegally. I hope not. They are trained professionals and know what their job is as well as the limitations. They MUST have probable cause to search, to open your cooler or uncover items concealed from their view. That said, perhaps their probable cause is less than you think. Don't forget they must show that PC in court in order to obtain a conviction. Blood, fish scales, hair, etc in your truck bed, on a tarp or cooler or your hands or clothes is sufficient. ALWAYS comply. Don't argue. Never tell them what the law is or how your rights disallow his actions. That will not deter him and it may encourage him to look further. Cooperation is always best. You will have plenty of opportunity to challenge his actions later.

If any LEO "asks" you if he can do something that means he has no legal standing to do so. If he has probable cause, whether real or imagined, he will trample all over you without asking. NEVER offer any unsolicited info or answer any leading or probing questions as they are trained to try to entrap you. Know what you HAVE to comply with when being checked before you go to the field. Be courteous & comply with only what you have to. Most of the game wardens I have had encounters with were "drunk with power" and couldn't care less about your "rights". Harrassing lawabiding hunters seems to be their main purpose. Catching anybody commiting a real violation seems to be a rare event. Just my experience. Others may differ.

 

[11Bravo]

Smart wardens carry good magnets and don't cut up shells!

You beat me to it as I was checked with one by DEC in the 80s.

 

[rhart]

Dylan Rounds case in Idaho appears to be murder by a felon using a muzzle loading weapon. I'm sure the anti-gunners will jump on it...

 

[Gold Grizzly]

Dylan Rounds case in Idaho appears to be murder by a felon using a muzzle loading weapon. I'm sure the anti-gunners will jump on it...

I got something anti - gunners can jump on.

 

[Dark Angel]

If any LEO "asks" you if he can do something that means he has no legal standing to do so. If he has probable cause, whether real or imagined, he will trample all over you without asking. NEVER offer any unsolicited info or answer any leading or probing questions as they are trained to try to entrap you. Know what you HAVE to comply with when being checked before you go to the field. Be courteous & comply with only what you have to. Most of the game wardens I have had encounters with were "drunk with power" and couldn't care less about your "rights". Harrassing lawabiding hunters seems to be their main purpose. Catching anybody commiting a real violation seems to be a rare event. Just my experience. Others may differ.

A ploy of many cops is to say, 'If you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't object to me searching your vehicle.' I told one, once, 'I have nothing to hide, but I do object to an illegal search, GET A WARRANT!' I was promptly put in handcuffs, 'For my safety. 'The cop told me. Then he proceeded to search my car anyway. A supervisor showed up, wanting to know what was going on. then uncuffed me and gave the miscreant cop an ass-chewing in front of me.

 

[2 shots]

Warden cut apart a shot shell to see if it was lead or steel shot. you would think they would be smart enough to carry a magnet... guess they would just rather 'break em'

 

[skwerleater]

A warden would be committing an unlawful search if he cut open one of your shells without your permission. It would be destruction of your personal property. It would require a warrant to search the contents of the shell, same as any other search of your personal property. An exception might be if the shells were clearly marked as steel or lead shot, and perhaps if they were in plain sight. The warden may have the authority to demand you produce your ammo for inspection, this I am unsure of. ( anyone with knowledge on this please chime in)

 

[Whughett]

A warden would be committing an unlawful search if he cut open one of your shells without your permission. It would be destruction of your personal property. It would require a warrant to search the contents of the shell, same as any other search of your personal property. An exception might be if the shells were clearly marked as steel or lead shot, and perhaps if they were in plain sight. The warden may have the authority to demand you produce your ammo for inspection, this I am unsure of. ( anyone with knowledge on this please chime in)

Purchase of a hunting license and the act of carrying a loaded firearm perusing game during lawful hunting seasons may, by the act of signing such a license and agreeing to its stipulations, give field officers some legal rights as to search or seizure. For example. Magazine capacity while shotgunning for migratory water fowl. One would have to empty the shotgun and prove it had a magazine limiter installed, or Proving a shot shell contained the mandated shot.
Would seem hunting is one of those, “ rights or privilege,”situations.

I don’t know the laws as such just throwing it out there.