Muzzleloading and development of the Cartridge rifle.

[SamTex1949]

Just doing some research (again) regarding spherical projectiles (ok round ball) and effective distance, this story supports the fact that the lowly RB worked well and had an effect on future events .
https://www.americanrevolution.org/murphy.php

 

[nkbj]

When shooting either paper patched or lubed bullets it's mind bending to see a less than bore diameter lead bullet compress axially and swell out to fill the grooves...

and shoot accurately after being jacked around that way!

 

[powderhombre]

so as we step up to the 50 cal, what is the BC of conicals in the 300 -400 grain range? Can we get to a place similar to that of a 45 cal?

 

[52Bore]

This 50cal I made for Stephen Ticket (WR - Tucker Buck) came out with a BC of 0.29
I’ll estimate at 400gr will be closer to 0.2
300gr maybe 0.17

 

[sportster73hp]

I purchased a Parker-Hale Enfield this past week came with a mini ball mold. It is 58 caliber. My question is ,will this projectile also shoot in my Kibler colonial with a Rice 58 cal barrel. The Enfield shoots well with a prb.

 

[52Bore]

 

[SDSmlf]

I purchased a Parker-Hale Enfield this past week came with a mini ball mold. It is 58 caliber. My question is ,will this projectile also shoot in my Kibler colonial with a Rice 58 cal barrel. The Enfield shoots well with a prb.

Why not try and see if you are curious? Best way to know. As long as it it loads and you don’t have radius bottom rifling, it might work, though I would start with a lighter powder charge if I was compelled to try it.

 

[Crow-Feather]

Please do not forget the Gibbs 451. A 1200 yard muzzle loading rifle that came darn near beating the Americans with their fancy rifles in the first ever competition tween the two countries. Gibbs knew how to build a rifle. Just don't take it apart trying to find out how. You will let the Leprechaun escape.

 

[52Bore]

Please do not forget the Gibbs 451. A 1200 yard muzzle loading rifle that came darn near beating the Americans with their fancy rifles in the first ever competition tween the two countries. Gibbs knew how to build a rifle. Just don't take it apart trying to find out how. You will let the Leprechaun escape.

Rigby’s were used by the Irish in the competition.

 

[powderhombre]

them are some nice looking bombs. I like the hollow point.

 

[ugly old guy]

The Witworth muzzleloader of Civil War infamy used a mecanically fitting long .45 caliber octagon bullet to fit the .45 caliber octagon bore.
Depending on which authority you trust, they were/are accurate on a "man sized" target out to 1200 to 1500 yards. (a couple "authorities" claim 1800 yards. none go below 1200 yards as the maximum effective distance)
Just because it loads from the front, don't mean it is innacurate past 100 yards or so.

Beyond 100 yards, a conical will always be more accurate.
My own experience is a round ball with the proper load is accurate to at least 150 yards. (the longest distance available at the shooting range I used. For hunting, I kept/keep my shots under 50 to 60yards with round ball, and under 100 yards with conicals.)

Since you mentioned them:
The .45-70, .40-60/.40-65, .45-90 and .50-90 were popular in shooting matches in the then popular "1,000 yard" matches. The Creedmore Match, for example.
(BTW, The actual distance from firing line to target was between 1,001 and 1,010 yards. 1,001 yards being the most common.) Not just out to 600 yards.

 

[powderhombre]

These are all very interesting reports. my back story: I live in Colorado They have changed some rules lately. Minimum caliber for Elk is 50 conical, 54 min. Round ball. I've taken all my Muzzleloading elk (6) with a TC Hawken 50 cal using Their Maxi ball conical all under a hundred yards. My buddy using his 50 cal TC Hawken has taken more elk with 177 grn round ball. I have some preference points for pronghorn That I need to use. I am going to Muzzleload. Colorado allows no sabots, or scopes, only loose powder . So my interest in reaching out past a hundred yards is why I am trying to gain as much technical information regarding ballistic coefficients, sectional densities, trajectories. I know the twist rate of my barrel for modern projectiles is not ideal. I'm going to try some 397 grain pure lead hollow point .498 paper patched to .503. I have not shot any of these as of yet.

 

[Siringo]

I purchased a Parker-Hale Enfield this past week came with a mini ball mold. It is 58 caliber. My question is ,will this projectile also shoot in my Kibler colonial with a Rice 58 cal barrel. The Enfield shoots well with a prb.

No. The rifling is incorrect for a proper bore seal.

 

[Crow-Feather]

Rigby’s were used by the Irish in the competition.

Yes sir, you are right. I humbly apologize to you and the Rigby rifle company. Sad to say ............ but had the Irish used Gibbs, they probably would have won.

 

[52Bore]

Yes sir, you are right. I humbly apologize to you and the Rigby rifle company. Sad to say ............ but had the Irish used Gibbs, they probably would have won.

No problem.
If they Irish team shooter did not shoot his last shot on the wrong target they would have won.
At the 1st NMLRA Creedmoor 150 event in 2019, the top 4 ML scores beat the top 4 BL scores by 1 point.. even though the number of BL out numbered the ML 2:1.

 

[Cattman]

my fast twist 50 cal muzzleloaders, yes side locks, shoot paperpatched bullets as accurate as any bpc rifle. infact more accurate i believe. just made up 100 405 grain paper patched bullets today. expect them to shoot as far as i can see when the weather allows.

 

[Crow-Feather]

No problem.
If they Irish team shooter did not shoot his last shot on the wrong target they would have won.
At the 1st NMLRA Creedmoor 150 event in 2019, the top 4 ML scores beat the top 4 BL scores by 1 point.. even though the number of BL out numbered the ML 2:1.

Sounds like a person that i knew in boot camp. Was shooting on 17 but accidently shot on 27. The DI had to restrain the person shooting on 27 as the errant shot ruined his score.

 

[powderhombre]

I know my TC barrel twist is not the best for conical s, but will have to try different bullets and charges to she just how good or bad. The weather is cold and snowy. I can't get into the ranges right now.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

We as ML enthusiasts have been told that our guns are usually only accurate to 100 yards or so.

Not sure about the premise......

Most of us that shoot ML Traditional rifles with patched round ball, commonly consider that the max effective range for hunting is 100 yards. I had no problem reaching out 200 yards with my flinter and pinging the 12" gong at 200 yards, from a bench rest.

Even James Forsyth, author of The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles (1867), who wanted the flattest shooting, hardest hitting, patched round ball out to 200 yards, didn't take dangerous game beyond 100 yards.

However, the accepted "commonest" distance for shooting muzzle loading, caplock rifles with paper patched bullets was 40 rods or..., 220 yards. As documented in The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle by Ned Roberts. However, Roberts also mentions rifles made to shoot targets at 60 rods, 80 rods, and 100 rods [330 yards, 440 yards, or 550 yards] The 40-rod target had an 8" bullseye, aka the "Creedmore" target, which is a bit large for deer hunting purposes.

While this book was published in 1947, it documents such shooting as early as the 1840's.
The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle


LD

 

[Eterry]

IIRC, when I got my copy of Lyman black powder Handbook I spent lots of time pouring over the trajectory tables. The 45 caliber conical, i believe a 300 grainer, had the best BC of all listed conicals, hence the flattest shooting of the lot.. Being a Lyman book, they didn't list their competitors. I think their tables only went to 300 yards. The amount of drop of the PRB at 300 yards was shocking, and an eye opener for me.

I think the US military decided to go with a 45 caliber over the 50, mainly due to increased range from the better BC of the 45 slug.

Years ago we spent a few days at the NRA'S Whittington center. They were shooting 1000 yard competition with BPC rifles. We were invited to watch. The first thing I discovered was the sights on these rifles cost more than many pay for a complete muzzleloader.

They were shooting prone, at 1000yards. They'd fire, clear their rifle, ground it, then roll over to their spotting scope and watch the bullet impact the target. That blew my mind.

Any muzzleloader shooting a conical bullet is capable of longer range than a prb... period.