Muzzleloading & treestands

[410-er]

I participated in a controlled hunts 2 yrs ago and hunted from a Tree Lounge.Hunting from a height of 30 feet I missed 5 deer in 5 hours that range around 40-60yds.Followed up each shot with no blood or hair.Used a Lyman Trades Rifle with 80grs of FFg and a 390gr TC Maxi.When shooting on the level I was on the top edge of a 3" circle at 50yds.The Tree Lounge gave me a good solid rest to shoot from and often the sights were still on the deer after the shot.Held just behind the front shoulder.What went wrong?

 

[roundball]

I participated in a controlled hunts 2 yrs ago and hunted from a Tree Lounge.Hunting from a height of 30 feet I missed 5 deer in 5 hours that range around 40-60yds.Followed up each shot with no blood or hair.Used a Lyman Trades Rifle with 80grs of FFg and a 390gr TC Maxi.When shooting on the level I was on the top edge of a 3" circle at 50yds.The Tree Lounge gave me a good solid rest to shoot from and often the sights were still on the deer after the shot.Held just behind the front shoulder.What went wrong?

Going only by what you said, you shot over their backs.

You were already sighted in 1.5" high at 50yds to begin with;

30 feet high at that close of a range creates a very steep angle and steep angles tend to make a rifle hit higher than normal;

Resting the rifle on a hard surface will tend to make a rifle jump and hit higher than normal;

The extreme downward angle causes you to hold the rifle differently from when you sighted it in and this difference in your body position & weight not being totally behind the rifle, allowed it's recoil arc to be higher faster;

The combination of all these aspects could easily have resulted in the conical being several inches high and sailing right over their backs.

 

[AJFedak]

It is all in the physics of the fligh path of the bullet.

Try this (or picture this), you take a fly rod attach a small weight to the end of a line attached to the end of the fly rod. Hold the rod horizontal. You will notice the tip is lower than the rod shaft. This almost simulates the path of the bullet. As you already know, there is an arc to the flight path of the bullet. Note where the wieght is position with respect to the ground.

Next start to raise the tip of the rod up. As it starts going up the arc or rod flex increases which would indicate that shooting at a target above your feet would cause you to shoot under your intended target ( the reference on the ground moves towards you). The more upward angle the more you will miss beneath the target.

The opposite will hold true for a target below your feet. You will have less arc therefore you shoot over the target. The steeper the angle the more you will shoot over the intended target.

This is more prevelant with blackpowder than with modern firearms, but the same principle applies. This also holds true for bow and arrow.

The next time you get a chance, climb a tree stand, shoot off the roof of a building, etc, at paper targets. You will see the difference.

 

[harryo]

Next start to raise the tip of the rod up. As it starts going up the arc or rod flex increases which would indicate that shooting at a target above your feet would cause you to shoot under your intended target ( the reference on the ground moves towards you). The more upward angle the more you will miss beneath the target.

The opposite will hold true for a target below your feet. You will have less arc therefore you shoot over the target. The steeper the angle the more you will shoot over the intended target.

This is not correct. Actually, a projectile fired from a rifle will strike high on both uphill and downhill shots. How high is dependant upon the ballistics of the projectile fired, the angle of the shot, distance to the target, and the height of the sights above the centerline of the bore. Both uphill and downhill shots may require adjusting your POA downward.

 

[roundball]

Actually, a projectile fired from a rifle will strike high on both uphill and downhill shots.

True...less effects of gravity in both scenarios.

 

[Dave K]

Always aim for the opposite side that you can't see. It works in bowhunting and guns, at least for me.

 

[AJFedak]

Always aim for the opposite side that you can't see. It works in bowhunting and guns, at least for me.

Gee Dave, I guess we both have the same impression on shooting either above/below your feet. :hmm:

Roundball, gravity is a constant and does not come into play at muzzleloader effective ranges. It is more of a flight path due to slower velocities and projectile shapes.

AJ/OH

 

[Claude Mathis]

Actually, a projectile fired from a rifle will strike high on both uphill and downhill shots.

True...less effects of gravity in both scenarios.

Correct. :thumbsup:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Roundball, gravity is a constant and does not come into play at muzzleloader effective ranges. It is more of a flight path due to slower velocities and projectile shapes.

BZZZZZ! Gravity causes a 10" or better effect within a round ball's effective range. Ask a bowhunter or a quarterback about gravity; even shorter effective ranges, mostly because of gravity. Gravity is independent of any ballistic shape, or speed even. Drop a golf-ball from three feet and fire a bullet horizontally with the barrel three feet off the ground over a level range and they hit the ground at the same instant. Just a long ways apart. Doesn't matter how slow or fast the bullet is pushed, it will always be the same result.

Without gravity the flight path would be a straight line off into space until air resistance slowed the ball, or it hit something. Eventually it would hang there motionless unless it had speed left when it broke free of the atmosphere.

Gravity works on the horizontal component of a projectile's path from the instant it leaves the muzzle.

 

[AJFedak]

[/quote]

Drop a golf-ball from three feet and fire a bullet horizontally with the barrel three feet off the ground over a level range and they hit the ground at the same instant. Just a long ways apart. Doesn't matter how slow or fast the bullet is pushed, it will always be the same result.

[/quote]

Sorry Stumpkiller, that theory only holds true if both objects have the same mass. And we won't consider deceleration and drag co-efficient.

I can see this is going no-wheres so for now, I'll shoot my game higher when above my feet and lower when below my feet, I'll put game in my freezer, you guys shoot where ever you want and do the same.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Sorry Stumpkiller, that theory only holds true if both objects have the same mass. And we won't consider deceleration and drag co-efficient.

Galileo and Newton will be so disappointed to learn they were wrong.

Remember Dave Scott of Apollo 15 on the moon with the feather and the hammer? Before your time, perhaps. Proof that without air resistance gravity effect is independent of mass.

I'll hold low for high deflection shots of any kind, as I always have. Guess Jack O'Connor was before your time, too. :winking: If I'm zeroed for 25 yards I hold on the squirrel's lower jaw line for a center head shot from a tree. Been successful at that for 30 years.

You can do as you like, but I don't want others to miss or wound and say they picked it up on this forum.

Further reading:
[url] http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/5th/33.cfm[/url]
[url] http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/April04.htm[/url]

 

[roundball]

Roundball, gravity is a constant and does not come into play at muzzleloader effective ranges. It is more of a flight path due to slower velocities and projectile shapes.

Suit yourself... :v

 

[roundball]

Galileo and Newton will be so disappointed to learn they were wrong.

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

 

[BS]

The Tree Lounge gave me a good solid rest to shoot from and often the sights were still on the deer after the shot.Held just behind the front shoulder.What went wrong?

Did you shoot off the metal piping with out a pad under the stock or did you use the barrel? That will cause you to shoot high sometimes.

As for the height thing, probably less than a 5 yd difference...don't mean didley!

But shooting off a hard surface can make a difference!

 

[mglampson]

After missing the second deer I would have been so ticked off, I would have fired at a spot on a tree to see what the difference would be between the point of aim and the point of impact. Maybe after the first miss.

 

[harryo]

I can see this is going no-wheres so for now, I'll shoot my game higher when above my feet and lower when below my feet, I'll put game in my freezer, you guys shoot where ever you want and do the same.

The fact is that if shooting at a target uphill, the projectile will hit higher than the POA, the same as when shooting downhill. This is commonly known by long time shooters. You can dispute the physics, if you wish, but that doesn't change the fact that you are simply incorrect.

You can aim where you want but if you hold high on an uphill shot, you will hit even higher than where you hold, possibly shooting over the back of the animal. That it your choice but I certainly wouldn't advise others to do it.

 

[410-er]

BS,I put my hand with a glove on the rail.Back of hand on rail while open hand cradles gun.Since this happened I sold the Trades 50 and went to the Great Plains 54 with round balls.Talk about frustrating when you know you are getting good groups yet miss.Thought too it might be the extra weight of the Maxi going under due to gravity.Either I got to start aiming at the belly line or go back to hunting on the ground.Got to play with this before this season starts.

 

[roundball]

PS:

I've spent a fair amount of years in treestands while bow hunting, handgun hunting, and using CF rifles + muzzleloaders.

I used to jack myself 25-30 feet up smooth poplar trees but soon learned that about 10' feet was really all I needed for gun hunting and have used that height for years now...the benefits of a tree stand are still all there...AND POA / POI is virtually normal at 10' when making 25-50yd shots...so you might consider trying a treestand height down around 10 feet...good luck

 

[CrackStock]

I have to agree with RoundBall here. 10 to 15 feet is enough to put you above their normal line of sight.

I also need to comment that we should all train as we intend to shoot. Set a target at the likely distance and elevation a deer will be from you and get into your stand and shoot a 5 shot group. I do not suggest that you disturb your favorite hunting spot, but do try it at a safe location.

My club did this years ago for a woodswalk shoot. They had a steel plate deer silhouette with a metal flapper in the kill zone. We shot it standing and then from up in a tree stand. A lot of us learned a thing or two about the effect on the shot.

CS

 

An archery range I frequent has a couple elevated stand shots. It is educational and you better aim low...same as if the target is above you. You can read that in any good book on shooting, or experience it yourself. Old dead guys like Keith and O'Conner will probably be disappointed to learn they were wrong also.

Vic