My 50 caliber rifle...is not a 50 caliber rifle

[Crowtalks]

I recently picked up a new Pedersoli Frontier flintlock and I happily went down to my range to shoot it. I went to seat my patch and .490 ball and it wouldn't even begin to try and go down the bore. I assumed it was the patches I was using (.015). I dug out the .010 patches and tried to get the ball to go with the same results. I trimmed one of the balls and finally got it to go down the bore and fired it successfully. Later I miked the bore and found out that my 50 cal's bore is .490

I have ordered .480 balls and with the .010 patches it should seat fine. I also experimented with sabot rounds and found that using Hornady green sabots (for 44 cal bullets) with .416 bullets seat perfectly...however the .416s are anywhere from $1.25 to $1.90 per round, and therefore they do not work for me for everyday shooting.

 

[Woody Morgan]

My 12 gauge fowler is actually an 11 gauge (.75").
I learned the hard way in this hobby to buy gun THEN gun food. And here I thought that my unmentionable calibers were confusing. 44=.429", .38sp=.357", etc. Oh. Add a thou for cast bullets.

wm

 

[Jaegermeister]

My .62 Jaeger is a .61. Found out when I bought a .62 coning tool. Didn’t fit.

 

[SDSmlf]

I recently picked up a new Pedersoli Frontier flintlock and I happily went down to my range to shoot it. I went to seat my patch and .490 ball and it wouldn't even begin to try and go down the bore. I assumed it was the patches I was using (.015). I dug out the .010 patches and tried to get the ball to go with the same results. I trimmed one of the balls and finally got it to go down the bore and fired it successfully. Later I miked the bore and found out that my 50 cal's bore is .490

I have ordered .480 balls and with the .010 patches it should seat fine. I also experimented with sabot rounds and found that using Hornady green sabots (for 44 cal bullets) with .416 bullets seat perfectly...however the .416s are anywhere from $1.25 to $1.90 per round, and therefore they do not work for me for everyday shooting.

Unfortunately, caliber sizes on muzzleloaders are not actual specifications, but rather suggestions or guidelines in my experience. Have you ever wondered why there are so many roundball sizes for every ‘caliber’?

 

[Notchy Bob]

These things happen. I found an un-used GRRW .54 caliber barrel earlier this year and had it sent to Mr. Bergmann, who built a Hawken around it. I just got the rifle a couple of weeks ago. GRRW barrels were made with a small amount of choke in the bore, and the bores are not all exactly true to size. I brought a variety of ball sizes on my first trip to the range. I started with .528" balls from Missouri Bullet Company, with a .017" ticking patch, but after having to drive the ball all the way down in a clean barrel, with a mallet, I switched to .520" Hornady balls for the rest of the session. I still needed a straight starter to get past the choke, but was able to seat the ball in the customary way with the ramrod. I only recovered one patch, but it had a hole blown in it and it was smoldering. For subsequent shots, I used a wadded-up lubricated patch as an over-powder wad, before loading the ball. That helped.

Accuracy was good, and I think I'll stick with the .520" balls for this .54. I also have some .54 caliber felt wads I'll bring next time.

Good luck! It sounds like you're on the right track.

Notchy Bob

 

[Woody Morgan]

Unfortunately, caliber sizes on muzzleloaders are not actual specifications, but rather suggestions or guidelines in my experience. Have you ever wondered why there are so many roundball sizes for every ‘caliber’?

No kidding. An ROA is a ".44" but we use .457 round ball in them. Oy.

wm

 

[user 49399]

My Fusil de Chasse was advertised as .62 caliber but it’s more like .60. I never know which one to call it so I usually say ‘about 20 gauge’.

I have a Thompson Center Hawken, .50 caliber that is almost impossible to load a .495 ball with the thinnest patch material and wettest lube I can find. A .490 ball loads just fine though.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

These things happen. I found an un-used GRRW .54 caliber barrel earlier this year and had it sent to Mr. Bergmann, who built a Hawken around it. I just got the rifle a couple of weeks ago. GRRW barrels were made with a small amount of choke in the bore, and the bores are not all exactly true to size. I brought a variety of ball sizes on my first trip to the range. I started with .528" balls from Missouri Bullet Company, with a .017" ticking patch, but after having to drive the ball all the way down in a clean barrel, with a mallet, I switched to .520" Hornady balls for the rest of the session. I still needed a straight starter to get past the choke, but was able to seat the ball in the customary way with the ramrod. I only recovered one patch, but it had a hole blown in it and it was smoldering. For subsequent shots, I used a wadded-up lubricated patch as an over-powder wad, before loading the ball. That helped.

Accuracy was good, and I think I'll stick with the .520" balls for this .54. I also have some .54 caliber felt wads I'll bring next time.

Good luck! It sounds like you're on the right track.

Notchy Bob

Actually a choked or tapered interior barrel was desired by many marksmen, at least according to The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle, by Ned Roberts. He documents how they were made, but he is also talking about rifles shooting paper patched bullets.

LD

 

[MikeMyDay]

Actually a choked or tapered interior barrel was desired by many marksmen, at least according to The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle, by Ned Roberts. He documents how they were made, but he is also talking about rifles shooting paper patched bullets.

LD

Dave, I don't have that publication, and can't find anything on-line about choked rifles. I understand that with shotguns choke determines the spread of shot, does Roberts explain how it works with a ball?
Thanks, Mike

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Here is a free, online link to the book.
To tell you the truth, since I'm not shooting parched, conical bullets at 220 yards,... I really didn't pay much attention to what Mr. Roberts wrote about the why. I know there was a debate about the need for such.
The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle

LD

 

[Alan Ruuska]

I can't recall a source, but from what I've read choked barrels in the olden days where made by using a cast lead lap (cast around the end of a ramrod). The lap was rolled in an abrasive and then worked along the interior of the barrel from the breach end but leaving the last approx. eight or nine inches untouched. This technique removes about a couple of thousandths from the majority of the barrel, but left the last portion tighter. I believe this was to foster easier loading as the barrel became fouled, while retaining the accuracy of a tighter patch/ball fit. I have such a rifle and have shot a twenty shot woods walk match without using a spit patch between shots.

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

Dave, I don't have that publication, and can't find anything on-line about choked rifles. I understand that with shotguns choke determines the spread of shot, does Roberts explain how it works with a ball?
Thanks, Mike

Upon firing, the bore-sized projectile upsets into the rifling, as the projectile moves down the choked bore, it swages the bullet. This does a couple things:
1. Uniforms the bullets, especially if they are cast, which contain gas pockets in the projectile

2. Ensures that the rifling is biting into new material all the time as the projectile travels down the bore, effectively eliminating the risk of it stripping off of the rifling

3. allows for easier loading, as the bore grows the further you go down the barrel towards the breech, especially important if there is fouling present.

Variable-depth rifling is a similar concept, used on several original rifle-muskets and sporting arms, but instead of choking the bore, the bore stays the same diameter and it's the grooves get shallower/smaller diameter as it goes from breech to muzzle. It's a great idea for ML arms, but adds cost to production of barrels, that's why you don't see many of them today. Modern Barrel making equipment (until the advent of CNC), wasn't nearly as adaptable as some of the early 19th century rifling benches, and since breechloaders don't really benefit much from choking or variable depth rifling, the barrel making tools most mfg's used for the last century for ML barrels were made to make Breechloader barrels, because it was what was conveniently available.

Choking can be done after the barrel is made, similar to back-boring shotguns, variable depth needs to be done on the rifling machine.

 

[Grimord]

I have a Pedersoli Tryon that is marked as a .50 caliber, but .495 balls with .020 patching go down the bore with very little pressure on the ram rod. I switched to cast .500 balls with a .018 ticking patch and now have a accurate load out of that gun. Before I was lucky to get 3" groups at 25 yards, now I get around 1" off the bench.

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

I have a Pedersoli Tryon that is marked as a .50 caliber, but .495 balls with .020 patching go down the bore with very little pressure on the ram rod. I switched to cast .500 balls with a .018 ticking patch and now have a accurate load out of that gun. Before I was lucky to get 3" groups at 25 yards, now I get around 1" off the bench.

thank goodness there's quality control

 

[Cattywompuss]

Well, fooee! Been there myself but not on a Rifled barrel. .62/20ga seems to be what everyone claims for common fowler and smoothbore sizes, but lucky me bought a smooth rifle and it turned out to be exactly .600 measured with calipers. I don't have any deep gauges to measure it deep in, but I doubt it is choked down to .60 from .62/20ga. Of course tools shrink with use and if someone legitimately is measuring for gauge and not caliber, things can be weird. Who knows. They may have just said "This one is gonna be a .60 by golly, gauge be damned!

And Notchy Bob is right about those GRRW barrels being "choked". Mine used to need quite a whack from a starter with any sized ball/patch combo.

 

[springfield art]

I recently picked up a new Pedersoli Frontier flintlock and I happily went down to my range to shoot it. I went to seat my patch and .490 ball and it wouldn't even begin to try and go down the bore. I assumed it was the patches I was using (.015). I dug out the .010 patches and tried to get the ball to go with the same results. I trimmed one of the balls and finally got it to go down the bore and fired it successfully. Later I miked the bore and found out that my 50 cal's bore is .490

I have ordered .480 balls and with the .010 patches it should seat fine. I also experimented with sabot rounds and found that using Hornady green sabots (for 44 cal bullets) with .416 bullets seat perfectly...however the .416s are anywhere from $1.25 to $1.90 per round, and therefore they do not work for me for everyday shooting.

Interesting. BTW, I have a nice quality India-made Bess, and it's .74 cal. miked. Of course we'd expect that from an Indian Bess, and it's not a big deal, but you made a quick fix and ID'd the problem. Good shootin'!

 

[sawyer04]

If we think this is bad in todays time just think how it was when the barrels were hand forged and hand reamed. I have seen old timers called 50 that was 55, 52. Those are not just numbers, they were measured by machinist standards. I say again one reason I call anything over 50 and up to 58 "a big 50". Usually started with a 1/2" mandrel or little over in wrought iron times made it around 50. I have trouble thinking that much of a difference would happen in todays process, but it does.

 

[Rudyard]

I was going to write about' Not all 45's being equal.' as ide cheerfully assumed they would be constant in these high tek days .I have several 45s and am making more up .But found what Ide thought wasn't the case at all . And my earlier assumptions where unfounded since few where near the 45 if close about. But it seems these variances are common place in all bores / calibers . and its needed to ensure you have the right size . patch to be loaded with out recourse to a short starter particularly in a hunting rifle . Of course if you have but one gun you are likley to know how to use it! . My barrel buying was whatever makers brls where on offer so I cant quote specific makers . Moulds too can vary from the stated size so its best to keep record of every gun what it did that day weather conditions load & qty of the specific powder and all the other details plus the score & group location if needed (Non of that needed by our man with only one gun!) POA, POI ,wiped ect .. before you begin and go "Now what did I use that last time ? ". That after shooting these things since the early 60s youde think I would have figured it all out . Yet clearly we still go on learning . Unless quite thick .Could be that I suppose . Regards Rudyard

 

[Rifleman1776]

I learned the hard way in this hobby to buy gun THEN gun food

Amen, Bro. Stated 'calibers' are only approximate suggestions.

 

[stewart.leach]

Modern guns are manufactured to meet the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute ("SAAMI") standards for barrel and chamber dimensions. There is no standards setting organization for muzzle loading arms. My own experience with this has been with a nominally 40 caliber barrel that I had to get a custom mold made at 0.385 diameter.

Sidebar: Harry Pope, the maker of the very finest and most accurate schuetzen rifles of the 1880 - 1900 period made his barrels with a choke. These were all cast bullet guns, long cast bullets, often of a two diameter design. Many years ago I was privileged to shoot a Pope gun at the Coors Schuetzenfest, held at Golden, Colorado. Interesting loading technique- the lubed and sized bullet is first forced up into the throat with a special calibrated tool, then the charged case placed in behind it. In many of the rifles there is a gap between case and bullet. Accuracy was phenomenal!