Myth of the Unreliable Flintlock

[Dean2]

Well, turns out to be not so much of a myth. Attended a black powder shoot on the weekend as an observer, which gave me a far greater cross section than shooting with a few friends.

Different than firing one round out of a well prepared gun hunting or shooting at the range with all the gear and time to do vent picking, flint knaping every ten shots, and barrel wiping every shot or two, I witnessed MANY MANY failures to fire during the trail walk. There was also a lot of evidence of hard to load from fouling, even in 58 and 62 caliber smooth bores, sights that moved, parts and accessories lost, not having all the right tools, but usually someone nearby had what was needed on them and even one dry ball.

We can talk all we want about their unreliability being a myth, result of inexperience etc., but in a 27 shot walk, with very experienced guys, using well built guns, new flints and 4F for prime, the number of failures to fire, slow fires and assorted mechanical issues, was very noticeable.

This is the first trail walk I ever took that involved this much shooting over a couple of mile course, with limited gear you can carry on you. Was curious if what I saw was common to what you guys that do a lot of trail walks have seen.

 

[azmntman]

What percentage (approx) ws the stuff happenin vs the fire as usual? BP is of course a lot more finicky than modern. I have never been to shoot, walk or ronddy (yet). Years ago I had time to practice archery and hunted with a bow, was pretty good too. Once at a competition in Show Low AZ I started the "walk" archery shoot, shot 7 times and my rest broke off, NO CHANGES TO EQUIP AT ALL after shoot began so I had to shoot off the riser. Still took 7th out of about 100 guys. I guess in BP hunting (and walks?)and/or archery knowing your equipment and improvising is a part of the "fun".

Were conditions good? (wind/rain/humidity etc), were there mayble alot of new guys? First shoot of the spring? :idunno:

 

[larry wv]

Not common and rare. I have very little if any reliability problems with my Flinter's. Larry

 

[biliff]

There was also a lot of evidence of hard to load from fouling, even in 58 and 62 caliber smooth bores, sights that moved, parts and accessories lost, not having all the right tools, but usually someone nearby had what was needed on them and even one dry ball.

The six P's apply here.

Seen all this happen with caplocks and flinters. Also seen plenty of both that have no problems. It's mostly the operator that influences the outcome, though there is more to take into account with a flintlock.

 

[stinkyfeet]

As said in my other post. My flinter might have one fail to fire in every 25 shots, this would be eliminated if I actually paid more attention to the edge of the flint, usually I won't touch it until it doesn't spark anymore or start giving me issues. It's not the guns fault its mine for being lazy, when hunting I always have a good edge on the flint, check and dump/refill pan often and it has never let me down yet. During a woodswalk if its working I don't touch it until it quits working, I fix the issue and it works fine. I can run through a 40 shot woodswalk and never swab the barrel or have fouling issues but I use a bore cleaner for lube. I do use a vent pick before every shot to just break the powder in the barrel a bit loose, I fine it speeds up ignition time.

 

[gunmaker43]

Well been shooting flint since 1978--Never have seen or attended a walk described like that ???? English military guns had to fire UPSIDE down to pass inspection. I've seen just the opposite--far more pops and misfires from cappers, usually due to dirty or fowled weapons. ...Tom

 

[S.Kenton]

My Rondy experiences have been simply this: The guys that know their firearms have alot less issues than the guys that don't spend time with their rifles. I've noticed the Flintlocks have more issues ( klatches, hangfires.. ect.) than the cappers do. To be fair tho, my club has alot more cap shooters than flintlock shooters. I have 2 flintlocks and 1 percussion rifle, I have yet to take my rocklocks out to a rondy.. still trying work out the quirks.

 

[nchawkeye]

Sounds like a bunch of guys that didn't know what they were doing... :haha:

How many had factory flintlocks vs custom with quality locks???

 

[Dean2]

What percentage (approx) ws the stuff happenin vs the fire as usual? BP is of course a lot more finicky than modern. I have never been to shoot, walk or ronddy (yet). Years ago I had time to practice archery and hunted with a bow, was pretty good too. Once at a competition in Show Low AZ I started the "walk" archery shoot, shot 7 times and my rest broke off, NO CHANGES TO EQUIP AT ALL after shoot began so I had to shoot off the riser. Still took 7th out of about 100 guys. I guess in BP hunting (and walks?)and/or archery knowing your equipment and improvising is a part of the "fun".

Were conditions good? (wind/rain/humidity etc), were there mayble alot of new guys? First shoot of the spring? :idunno:

Weather was Blue Bird sunny, light breeze, and about 70 degrees F. No mud or bugs and the leaves just starting to pop out, so absolutely perfect day.

I only saw one cap lock rifle and no cap lock pistols with failure to fire. With the rifle it was a bad cap. Of the 20 or so flintlock shooters, only one fellow had no failures to fire on his rifle while 4 of the 6 Flint pistol shooters had no failures to fire. (Surprised me a little that the pistols seemed to fire better than the rifles).

All of the shooters had instances of whoosh booms(slow, drawn out ignition) at some point in their walks. The worst affected shooters had what I call Klatches (pan doesn't go off) as much as 30% overall, and some took as many as 5 wipes, on the cock knaps and re-cocks to get it to go off,(Once the pan is primed you must discharge the load before you can change out the flint) but they were more prevalent for all shooters near the end of the walk and less prevalent at the beginning, which makes sense as the flint dulls.

The higher scoring shooters, those scoring 23-27 points, had relatively less whoosh Booms or Klatches but still exhibited some. Lowest scoring shooter ran about 12 points out of 27 with the rifle and he had only one failure to fire on the first station, I think he forgot to prime the pan actually, and a couple of whoosh booms.

There were less often pan flash with failure to fire. I only recall seeing two or three of those. Overall there were more high scoring cap shooters than flint shooters, and as I said the cap shooters had FAR less issues with their guns.

I well take the rest of your comments, and it is not fair to base everything on only one 2 mile walk with only 50 shooters, but I do plan to do this again at least a couple of times and I am going to take my own guns out and try the course myself. That way I will know for sure because I know my own guns and how they are cared for very well.

 

[Sean Gadhar]

I've not done a BP shoot with others in years, but I do bow shoots every winter & I can tell you that guys who shoot 3" groups like clockwork in private or with one or two others, make amazing flubs when on line with 20 others & maybe 50-60 more people just feet behind them watching. :td: If they had to lube, patch, prime, prick each shot :idunno:

I know my hart rate is out of bounds when I end up shooting the last arrow of a round & everyone is watching me :redface:

 

[Heelerau]

I believe the British Ordnance Board had a trial in all weathers of both the flint and the new fangled percussion cap system when considering changing Bess for the Minne' Rifle. There were over 350 odd miss fires by the flintlock compared to 30 or less misfires with the percussion system after 1000 rounds were shot.
I shoot both, and have very few misfires with my flintlocks, but am most attentive to them. Cap locks are easy.

Cheers

heelerau

 

[Trench]

As a rule, I shoot from the bag and only have issues when I try to stretch the life of a flint out longer than I should. I see guys on occasion that struggle the entire shoot like you described.

During a shoot last year, I myself had a number of klatches which I couldn't explain. I was deffinitely making my rifle look bad. I don't know if it was my flint position or the flint or both, but it was not a good day. Ever since then the rifle was shooting as snappy as ever. Go figure.

 

[stinkyfeet]

Sounds like a bunch of guys that didn't know what they were doing... :haha:

How many had factory flintlocks vs custom with quality locks???

I shoot a pedersoli frontier a production gun and have great luck with it and its just as reliable as my full custom lancaster with a large siler lock.

 

[Dean2]

I believe the British Ordnance Board had a trial in all weathers of both the flint and the new fangled percussion cap system when considering changing Bess for the Minne' Rifle. There were over 350 odd miss fires by the flintlock compared to 30 or less misfires with the percussion system after 1000 rounds were shot.
I shoot both, and have very few misfires with my flintlocks, but am most attentive to them. Cap locks are easy.

Cheers

heelerau

Now that is very interesting set of numbers you have there from historical testing records. Interesting that their Flintlock failure rate was pretty similar to what I observed at the shoot and that the cap lock failure rate was 3% versus the flint at 35% failure to fire.

Gives me even more respect for the very skilled shooters who can keep a flintlock performing reliably over a long, uninterrupted, shot string. Tells you they have advanced skills and attention to detail, along with a very well built gun.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Annecdotal evidence being what it's worth.... :wink:

British testing for battlefield firing not necessarily the same as hunting, and of course the quality of the steel in the locks and the quality of the lock construction itself hasn't changed in two centuries, and the British private was well educated back then... oh wait.... :haha:

When you folks go to shoots and make observations, please keep in mind a few facts:

Owning and shooting flintlock for decades is NOT equal to being an "experienced flintlock shooter". Carry it about for decades from rondy to rondy, and once in a while shoot it; doesn't make one "experienced" in anything but rust prevention. Shoot one for fifty years only in dry weather; only shoot at paper at the range from 10 a.m. until 4 p.m. ... might be an experienced target shooter, but not "experienced" flintlock shooter. Carry it in the woods, in all weather, and take game with it in all weather, and you're probably coming close to "expert".

IF the "experienced" folks are having a lot of troubles with their guns in a controlled setting, then maybe they're not such experts...see previous paragraph. :shocked2:

The flintlock is not equal to the caplock reliability, nobody has suggested such..., merely that the caplock is not the vastly superior, all weather, speed loading, game slayer, that too many of its users think that it is. :haha: It is a simpler system, thus with less that can go wrong... perhaps the British observed not the vast superiority of the caplock system itself but the ease of the ignorant in its use? :shocked2: [oh no he didn't really go there did he?] :haha:

The caplock btw was born NOT out of the need for more all-weather reliability, but to reduce what was thought to be a problem of scaring fowl when shooting due to the pan-flash... thus came the scent bottle, followed by the cap...and breech loading fixed ammunition came about due to the desire for fast reloading. In both improvements better weather resistance was a bonus.

LD

 

[hanshi]

I've been shooting flintlocks since about 1969. I've had FTFs and all but a few were flint related. At the range I have more FTFs than normal; however, I generally use old flints that have been replaced by new ones for hunting season. With care these worn flints give plenty of shots; normally enough shots to take me through an afternoon session. I have to knapp them fairly frequently which is no matter on the range. I'm frugal and try to get the most out of a flint before it's fully retired. If I start off with a new flint no knapping is usually done prior to 20 to 40 shots. Occasionally vent picking is called for but that's unusual.

I've had quite a few FTFs with caplocks same as with flint. Over all flintlocks are less "reliable" than percussion, without a doubt. But if one knows, truly knows how to manage a flinter it would surprise many to see just how reliable they can be. A percussion is a mechanical, more fool proof system that simply requires "put cap on nipple cock and pull trigger". Much knowledge, judgement and skill are required to keep a flinter running; not so with a capper.

I trust and rely on flintlocks enough that I hunt exclusively with them even though I own caplocks and have killed lots of game with them. I've never worried while in the bush whether or not the gun will fire; I KNOW it will.

 

[twig]

I am rather new to the self built flintlock thing and have not shot a caplock ever. However my rock lock small siler 36 cal does good with a new flint when its dry for around 75-100 rounds...When it is very humid or raining some it needs some attention to the frizzen, pan, and flint after about 20 rounds. I wipe things off good and run a dry patch after every shot. It is reliable enough that I can fill my dutch oven every weekend I am off with a tasty wood chuck or two unless it is raining buckets and I don't keep the lock covered out of the rain..It is suprizing considering how old the concept is that a flint lock works as well as it does.
:thumbsup:
I don't consider the flintlock unreliable if attention is paid to it while shooting.. when not compared to modern centerfire rifles.

 

[M. De Land]

Well you had me nodding my head in affirmation until that last sentence LD!
I mean the part about percussion ignition being developed so as not to scare game birds.
I need some smelling salts after reading that one! :rotf:
Actually I think it is far more likely to have been a military contract impetus, driving the innovation. Mike D.

 

[M. De Land]

I've read that Howard discovered fulminate in 1800 as well but doubt the impetus was fowl shooting. The story goes that he noticed fowl were given to much advanced warning from the pan flash that allowed them to escape before the ignition and shot string got to them. I think that is nonsense personally. Birds are quick, but not that quick.
I think it far more likely the discovery was motivated by a lucrative military contract possibility. Especially after Rev Forsyth patented the percussion cap from the fulminate discovery. Mike D.
.

 

[stinkyfeet]

I think the aliens came up with the design.. :rotf: