Myth of the Unreliable Flintlock

[don hepler]

I certainly agree with what you saying, however, even if a deer would "jump the string" so to speak, that wouldn't make the flintlock, "unreliable". It might not be the perfect firearm, but if it fired, then the gun itself, was reliable.

Almost every animal, including humans, will move down, before breaking into a run. Starting to run, with the legs in a locked upright position, is not natural, or effective.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Thanks Spence, I'd always heard the flash/duck version...true or not. Never actually believed any animal (two legged, four legged or winged) could see, process and react in the time a descent flint lock fired and the charge or ball got to the target. Don't recall a single version commenting om dampness as being what Forsyth was trying to overcome. Makes much better sense to me than the tricky duck version. Doves, on the other hand... :shocked2:

 

[LaBonte]

The speed of light - the flash of the pan - is
983,571,056.43 feet per second so a bird at say 20 yards (30 feet) could see that flash in
.00000000305 seconds -
Pletch noted above the fastest flint lock he has measured was .063 seconds from flash to ignition - so basic math says that while we are talking only microseconds, that the flash could be seen well before the gun even fires, let alone before the shot reached the target....

 

[Dean2]

Personally I have no idea why they went in search of a better ignition system. I have never studied the history close enough to have an opinion formed from research. That said, it is human nature to always be looking for faster and better, particularly in the area of arms and munitions.

As far as reaction times, speed of light and all that. Seems pretty far fetched to me. Fastest measured human reaction times are in the 130 millisecond range. Average is 215 milliseconds, so between .130 and .215. Even a very slow Flintlock is faster than that. I don't know whether ducks are faster than humans, and this assumes they even know to avoid the flash they see, but a human can't react fast enough to do anything even if they see the flash.

Spence's description of the need for a more waterproof solution and the advertisements that support this as its main selling feature, though it does also mention speed, seems far more likely.

 

[Vaino]

First off...judging from my experience squirrel hunting and extensive plinking w/ my .45 flintlock which doesn't get cleaned until it's back home, I've found it to be very reliable and have used it for 30 years. Initially the early small Siler flintlocks had problems because their geometry was incorrect, but these "faults" were all corrected by me and today it's a very reliable shooter.

So what causes the problems w/ flinters? IMO....lousy locks, lousy flints and uneducated or careless shooters. What else is left?

Caplocks on average are more reliable than flinters, IMO, and most of the caplocks problems are w/ the so called "patent breeches". Not properly designed and not properly cleaned. The flash channel in a "patent breech" is a good collection area for BP debris and oil if not thoroughly cleaned.

An educated shooter, whether flint ot cap is unlikely to experience the many "flubs" of the careless or nonchalant shooter...but the quality of the guns is paramount and many, sorry to say, are deficient and this can only be blamed on the manufacturer's quest for greater profits and neglecting quality of design and manufacturng......Fred

 

[hanshi]

In humans, anyway, reaction is much slower than an initiating action. E.g., A super fast gunslinger can draw and fire in, say, 1/4 of a second. If his opponent takes 3/4 of a second to do the same then if the slow gunfighter draws first he'll probably kill his fast drawing opponent. The big hang up is always the processing time of the one reacting and not the time lapse of the actual movement. The analogy presumes both men have the required accuracy.

 

[MJMarkey]

I ONLY shoot my own made flintlocks. But many of the shooters I shoot with shoot production Cap locks. On days where we matched shot for shot my rifle won for performance. Maybe my rifles are better, I hope that's true, but the reality of it is probably that I am more attentive to the way it's performing. Very slight variations in performance usually mean the flint is worn or things need attending to. People who shoot caps are not geared to watch for these subtle changes.

At a recent event with a large group of nearly 100 kids. Introducing them to BP rifles both cap and flint and letting them fire the rifles. I had only 1 fail to fire and it was a dull flint. On the other hand the cap lock shooter had several fails to fire. I only had one difficult loading and it was after we broke for lunch and the fowling had an opportunity to set up. This too was my fault, I should have swabbed the bore to remove the fouling before trying to load. Incidentally, the entire event took place in a Georgia downpour, fortunately, we were shooting from under a shelter, but you know the humidity couldn't have been higher.

I have owned and shot production flintlock rifles in the past, and they DO NOT COMPARE to a custom made rifle. there is a huge improvement in performance with the custom rifles.

If you're shooting an unreliable flintlock you are only training yourself to flinch. Because you never know when the dang thing will fire. I had one like that, that's why I know. A quality flintlock rifle is a JOY to shoot, if it does fail to fire it's a surprise.

 

[hanshi]

I think you have some good points in your post.

 

[nchawkeye]

Yep, that's where I was going with my first post but didn't receive a response...

If a fellow either shells out the dough or takes the time to make his own flintlock and spends time learning how to use it he will probably know his gun better than those that don't.....

I have never owned a factory made side hammer, they don't interest me...I started with a custom in 1977 because I wasn't impressed with productions guns...I've shot plenty of them and repaired several for friends as well, they just don't compare to a properly made custom gun...

 

[jdw276]

Mr. Markey and I were together at that event. His flints only had some trouble after almost 100 shots over 6 hours in both his long rifle and pistol flinters. It POURED at times and we all kept loading and shooting even during the rain.

We all had a bit of trouble loading at the end with that many shots and just a little swabbing. Now on the other hand those other black guns did not want to get them wet and would not shoot in the rain and the initials gun (AK) broke down during the event. many of the other range folks doing other pistols/rifles/shotgun came over to shoot the BP. Of the 12 or so kids that were on film documenting the event, 8-9 said that the BP was the most fun they had.

Probably over 1 1/2" of rain over 6 hours and it had rained during the night before.

Our firearms were amazingly reliable and surprised all of em. My trouble was getting the caps off after they fired. I did not clean off the nipple and it got a bit of gunk on it and did not splinter properly. We were the hit of the event and recommend doing it at all events possible.

john

 

[dikman]

If a fellow either shells out the dough or takes the time to make his own flintlock and spends time learning how to use it he will probably know his gun better than those that don't.....

If you're saying that by buying/building a custom gun the owner will know it better, then I must disagree with you. It all depends on the owner. I have a lowly Pedersoli Frontier, and have dismantled it completely (except for removing the breech). I feel that I know it just as well as my cap lock (which is a custom made rifle). Knowing how it works, I am now in the process of trying to understand how it performs.

It comes down to the owner, and the amount of effort they're prepared to put into their gun, whether custom or production.

 

[nchawkeye]

It's fine to disagree, but unless you have installed a Siler lock, coned touch hole, cut rifled barrel, then chances are it won't be as reliable or accurate as a custom...

Many questions on here relate back to these components as well as to where the touch hole was located as well as to the sub par triggers...

And finally, I've never seen a production rifle with a swamped barrel...

It took me 2 years to make my .54 flinter...It was time well spent... :thumbsup:

 

[Grandpa Ron]

A well-timed and tuned flintlock will outperform a mediocre caps lock, just as a well-timed and tuned cap lock will compete with a mediocre center fire.

However if you are building a particular firearm you may not be able to optimize the lock time.

There are many things you can do to improve a given flintlock’s speed, but some historically correct designs are just not as fast as others.

I you really want to tell the difference between a fintlock and a cap lock, try shooting at some moving targets.

 

[Dean2]

If you really want to tell the difference between a flintlock and a cap lock, try shooting at some moving targets.

EXCELLENT point. Anyone thinks a flint is as fast as a caplock, check out the lead you need shooting skeet on station 5 with a flint fowler versus a cap one.

There does however seem to be pretty universal agreement that with two equally well built guns and the same well trained shooter, the cap lock will be faster and more reliable; at least the vast majority of the time. This is completely in line with what I saw at the shoot. This is a great conversation, I really enjoyed seeing all the different points of view.

 

[Wes/Tex]

EXCELLENT point. Anyone thinks a flint is as fast as a caplock, check out the lead you need shooting skeet on station 5 with a flint fowler versus a cap one.

I would argue that the lead is the same but the flintlock will require a little more concentration on the follow-through. I know, picky, picky, picky! :wink:

 

[hanshi]

I tend to agree with you. I made a great running shot on a deer with a flint fowler a few years ago. Whereas many shooters will lead and stop to fire at the lead point, I lead also but keep the gun moving through the shot. That's the only way I can make moving flintlock shots. I've taken a few running deer with flint rifles as well.

 

[Dean2]

EXCELLENT point. Anyone thinks a flint is as fast as a caplock, check out the lead you need shooting skeet on station 5 with a flint fowler versus a cap one.

I would argue that the lead is the same but the flintlock will require a little more concentration on the follow-through. I know, picky, picky, picky! :wink:

Depends on the shooting method you use. Swing through and fire or sustained lead and follow though you are right, concentration is what makes the difference, as well as maintaining your follow through for far longer with the flintlock. Point lead and shoot you are not correct. Either way, having to maintain your follow through for longer, or having too point and shoot farther ahead of the target confirms the slower ignition times of the flintlock. Picky picky on my part too I know. :grin:

 

[Wes/Tex]

Have to admit you're generally right and I've developed a sort of combo style that uses a bit of both methods, depending on the target. One of the things I finally hammered out of myself when I first started shooting sporting clays was the 'shoot & look'. Suppose it's natural for a shooter to want to see if he's hit the silly clay "whizzer" or not, but when I got to the place I'd assume It was a hit and complete the swing my score rose dramatically. I have to have a flintlock whose lock time is CLABOOM with virtually no lag time and have adopted my shooting style with that in mind. Slow ignition on a flint lock is totally unacceptable for me...and we're back to picky! :wink:

 

[eaglesnester]

I have a 54GPR that I built myself from a kit. I replaced the lock with a L&R and replaced the touch hole with a white lightning. I have no klatches, klickbooms, flash in the pans, or FTF as long as I pay attention to my loading. One of the more important elements in shooting a rock lock is fixing yur flint in the cock properly. My GPR hawken is very reliable and very accurate. With a 535 ball and .018 pillow ticking and anywhere from 70 to 100gr 2f or 3f it shoots like a house a fire. It does not seem to care what the charge is, it shoots into a 10inch gong off hand at 100 meters 7 out of 10 times.(on a good day) That is minute of moose, deer, or bear and good enough. I love that rifle, Also have a 54cap lock GPRH that shoots the same way. Load er up with 100grains of holy black and a 470grain Great Planes bullet and U got a good shooting combo that shoots better than I can and will put down anything that walks in North America. One thing though U dont shoot more than 9 or 10 rounds because it starts to get right painful.

 

[Toomuch51]

Well, turns out to be not so much of a myth. Attended a black powder shoot on the weekend as an observer, which gave me a far greater cross section than shooting with a few friends.

Different than firing one round out of a well prepared gun hunting or shooting at the range with all the gear and time to do vent picking, flint knaping every ten shots, and barrel wiping every shot or two, I witnessed MANY MANY failures to fire during the trail walk. There was also a lot of evidence of hard to load from fouling, even in 58 and 62 caliber smooth bores, sights that moved, parts and accessories lost, not having all the right tools, but usually someone nearby had what was needed on them and even one dry ball.

We can talk all we want about their unreliability being a myth, result of inexperience etc., but in a 27 shot walk, with very experienced guys, using well built guns, new flints and 4F for prime, the number of failures to fire, slow fires and assorted mechanical issues, was very noticeable.

This is the first trail walk I ever took that involved this much shooting over a couple of mile course, with limited gear you can carry on you. Was curious if what I saw was common to what you guys that do a lot of trail walks have seen.

Judging from the different situations you have listed, I would suggest your companions were well experienced but little practiced.

The flint knapping is common only to flinters and the amount will vary as to type of flint, flint positioning and how well it is secured in the jaws.

Constant barrel wiping and excessive fouling are the result of ill fitting balls or excessively heavy loads especially in a smoothbore and has nothing at all to do with the type of lock.

Not having adequate tools or supplies in your poke is simply a matter or poor preparation, and also has nothing to do with the type of lock.

In short, all of the problems you have described are nothing more than shooter error.

Toomuch
...........
Shoot Flint