Navy Arms 58 cal Hawken Hunter

[Thomas Kulinski]

Recently acquired a Navy Arms Hawken Hunter in 58 cal. I've wanted one since I red the article by Val Forgett in the 1975 Lyman Black Powder Handbook. He took one of these to Africa and bagged the big-5 with it. I'm trying to duplicate that lode, which Forgett described as 180 grains of FFFg behind a 610 grain thick skirted mini. Forgett stated that the projectile mold was produced by some outfit called Shiloh Products. I suspect this company is out of business or been purchased and under a new name. I can't find this mold anywhere. Anyone know if it can still be obtained?

 

[Col. Batguano]

Boy, that would be a shoulder thumper. Maybe give you a gun headache (meaning a mild concussion) too. I once shot a 58 cal RB over 180 gr. FFg in a `61 Springfield. That's basically duplicating the load of a 375 H&H, in a gun with a straight metal butt plate. OUCH! Only did it once. Now you want to double the projectile weight with the same charge? Free recoil is going to be similar to a 458 Win mag, in a gun with a narrow, curved butt plate, and a relatively thin comb? Double ouch! If Val Forgett use this load for the big five, I bet he was glad there wasn't a big SIX.
:shake:

 

[Ronnman]

I have the .58 Hawken Hunter and have fired this bullet with 200 grains of 3F. I does kick. It was so loud, i had other shooters ask if it was a canon. There is a mold on eBay right now. It is a semi wadcutter type minie. I have this mold and had to cut down the base cavity plug to increase the skirt thickness. My mold cast at 640 grains. It is similiar to Lyman 57730 except the top of the mold is bored to make the semi wadcutter design.

Search eBay for: Shiloh Black powder Bullet Mold 582-D

I have no connection to this seller nor the item. I seems A tad high, but has been on the eBay for some time. If interested, you might make him an offer.
Ron

 

[Wes/Tex]

Shiloh has been out of business for some years now but their 610 grain "Stakebuster" was the Lyman 590 grain #57730 with a modified square nose. Sam Fadala did a lot of extensive work with his using everything from round ball to the "Stakebuster 610" as well with similar charges. He eventually backed off of most of the top loads when they didn't produce enough increased velocity to warrant burning all extra powder. Nearly all the Minie projectiles maxxed out at about 120 grains of FFg or Pyro RS. Using a lot of FFFg was requiring lock work for resetting hammer. Even at those lower velocities you'll be cranking up about 1600 foot pounds of knock down. Not many critters on this continent will need that much! :wink: Just work up slow and from below!

 

[Kapow]

I can vouch for the effectiveness of the Lyman great Plains bullet in 54. 450gn maxi with 100gn ffg was very effective on various big game including kudu and wildebeest.

I don't know of any similar bullet in 0.58?

 

[BrownBear]

I can tell you with certainty that the 58 cal TC Big Boar is a phenom with 525 grain (Hornady GP) and 560 grain (TC) bullets on top of 120 grains of 2f. On both ends. I'm not particularly recoil shy, but I wasn't the least bit "inspired" to load more powder behind them in such a light rifle.

Recoil was on the order of a modern 3" slug from a light 12 gauge. Guy thinks he needs more for this continent, he really oughta work on his shooting skills.

 

[azmntman]

I shot same load ONCE :shocked2: :shake: :surrender: from my .58 hawkin Investarms. Not gonna load it again (cept once for my to-be son-in law who knows everything)

 

[Thomas Kulinski]

Yes, I have that mold in my watch list. Wasn't sure exactly what it was. Now I know. Thanks.

 

[nwtradegun]

check with lodgewood manf. the guy who sells the bullets has that mold. he sells them for 40 per one hundred plus ship.

 

[Ronnman]

Planetmobius

I just rechecked the Bullet Mold 582-D list on eBay. My mold is a 577-D which cast .577 diameter bullet. Apparently the mold on eBay would cast a .582 diameter. This may be too large for the bore of the Hawken Hunter without sizing.
Ron

 

[Ronnman]

You were lucky on that load. The 58 Hawkin Investarms is not as strong as the Navy Arms Hawken. The Navy Arms Hawken is 1-1/8 across the flats, is rifled like a musket with shallow wide grooves and has a 1 in 60 twist.
Ron

 

[BrownBear]

You were lucky on that load. The 58 Hawkin Investarms is not as strong as the Navy Arms Hawken. The Navy Arms Hawken is 1-1/8 across the flats, is rifled like a musket with shallow wide grooves and has a 1 in 60 twist.
Ron

Meanwhile the Investarms 58 is only 15/16" across the flats. Mine is a joy to carry and remarkably accurate, but I'm not man enough to take it past 100 grains of 2f.

 

[azmntman]

I wont go that high. That 120 gr load took some temper from me! I find the .58 great plains conical shoots JUST FINe with 70-80 gr. Dad kilt his buf with 80 and we recovered the bullet in skin after passing through both shoulders (85 and we wouldnt a found it). The buf took three staggering leaps and was done!

I shoot a 300 WM OK and that 120 grain load was waaaayyy worse. Not afraid of recoil but not stupid either (no dental insurance ya know :haha: )

 

[Vaino]

The .58s and loads mentioned above can be "tamed" somewhat by wearing good "ear muffs". Some of the discomfort experienced when shooting "big loads" is exaggerated by the noise.

Met a friend at the range who is into big bore CFs and shoots them well and always wear muffs.

He asked me if I wanted to shoot some of his rifles and I agreed. Started w/ a .58 Win which has approx. 50 some ft/lbs of recoil and ended w/ a .458 Weatherby w/ its 102 ft/lbs of recoil. As a reference, the .30/06 w/ a factory load w/ a .180 gr bullet is 27 ft/lbs which seems to be the max that many shooters feel comfortable w/.

The Weatherby's excellent stock design is far better than many big bore MLers which have skinny butts, crescent shaped buttplates and incorrect combline drops....all of which exaggerate recoil.

Would be interesting to know the actual recoil in ft/lbs of the .58 rifle and loads Forgett used on the biggest game in Africa so as to make a comparison w/ the above CFs......Fred

 

[BillinOregon]

Funny how the memory of Val Forgett lives on thanks to that article he wrote in that first Lyman muzzleloading manual. I have probably read it a dozen times, and his African hunt and the loads he worked up in his two .58s are the subjects of ongoing conversation around the Internet some forty-odd years later.
Heaviest BP load I have ever fired was 150 grains FFg under the .732 835-grain "Fosbury cotton spool" conical in a Pedersoli Kodiak, but that rifle's heavy double barrels took all the sting out of the thump and it was quite tolerable.

 

[BrownBear]

...heavy....

That's one of the principal keys, along with stock configuration, anti-recoil technology and shooting technique. I have a long history of shooting very big boomers in modern calibers, and the recoil experience can be all over the map almost without regard for math and formulas.

But with a pure basic traditional muzzleloader weight is kinda the starting point. My 8ish-9ish pound Big Boar (haven't weighed it) is starting to eat my lunch with 140 grains of 2f and a PRB rather than a heavy conicial. I have an array of heavy 58 cal conicals and have shot them a fair bit. They make the same gun feel like an entirely different gun, the recoil is intensified so much more.

I suspect the NA Hawken Hunter is similar in weight. But there's also the point that the Big Boar's stock configuration isn't ideal for my long body and prominent cheek bones. Dunno the Hawken Hunter from an honest politician, but I could forecast a lot about the recoil simply by picking it up and shouldering it once.

In contrast my 58 cal GRRW Hawken fits me like a glove and tips the scale just over 12 pounds. You know you lit a fuse when you pop off 140 grains of 2f under a PRB, but it's nowhere close to painful.

One point worth pushing to the front from here in the land of lots of big boomers:

Folks here on the site are mostly old guys, getting older all the time. Old guys and heavy recoil has proven to be a very bad mix. The number of old guys I know with torn retinas from big boomer recoil should scare you spitless.

 

[tenngun]

Funny how the memory of Val Forgett lives on thanks to that article he wrote in that first Lyman muzzleloading manual. I have probably read it a dozen times, and his African hunt and the loads he worked up in his two .58s are the subjects of ongoing conversation around the Internet some forty-odd years later.

Heaviest BP load I have ever fired was 150 grains FFg under the .732 835-grain "Fosbury cotton spool" conical in a Pedersoli Kodiak, but that rifle's heavy double barrels took all the sting out of the thump and it was quite tolerable.

I have his ml book also. He was not driven to be HC but his book was full of useful info. He did a lot to resurrect our sport. Lots of evenings I just grab it and thumb through it re-reading stuff for the thousands time

 

[Ronnman]

The .58 Val Forgett big game story was also printed, although abrigded, in the front section of the Navy Arms Catalog back in the 70s.
Ron

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