Navy Arms .58 Hawken Hunter?

[Rat]

Well I'm not really arguing, just teasing. But I do prefer a larger caliber, or bore, in any given barrel size.

Now, if argue we must, when I had my Jeager built, I had a choice between .54", .58", and .62" in the barrel profile of my choosing. A .54", in my opinion, would make for a heavier rifle than I wanted. I like the .54", but all it would provide, in my opinion, would be the heaviest barrel of the three.

The .58 was hard to resist. I love the .58", had/have other rifles in that caliber, molds, wads etc. That would have been an easy choice. However, I went with .62" in the end, because that gave me the lightest barrel, and the most horse power. I've said this a million times, I know y'all tired of hearing it, but I hunt in a grizzly recovery area, and going with a .58", which would have been "enough", was not better, to my mind, that going with a .62", which would be more than enough, or at least more better. A little insurance is not a bad thing. But of course, we can take that to either extreme.

I don't think that a larger diameter ball at the same velocity equals less penetration. ?? I'm not sure about that however. ? But larger diameter at the same velocity does equal more "smackdown", although that's a very hard one to quantify. Penetration test in gel would prove out the former. It is however, easier to get more velocity out of a small bore, than a large bore, before flash, blast, and recoil becomes a problem, or barrel length becomes extreme. But I don't think we would choose a .32" over a .54", for Elk hunting, because the .32" might have more penetration.

I absolutely agree, if I had that rifle, and bored her out, it would be a round ball shooter, and rifled for such.

 

[M. De Land]

We're not arguing were discussing! The big difference is that with a .62 you would be most likely shooting a ball where as the Hunter is a bullet (conical) shooter. Never was intended for patches balls but rather minie's or Maxi's! The conical carries much more weight and there fore carries more knock down and penetration power than does a .62 patched ball.
Now one could make a .62 caliber maxi but that would probably be way more than would be practical.
Another thing that is often wondered about is will those huge charges of powder get burned in 26 inches of barrel. I have found it will all be consumed and that is because of the heavy bullet weight.
One small downside of these heavy conical shooters is that they are hard on nipples because of the increased chamber pressure.

 

[Rat]

Okay, so it is a slug gun. (I'd still be interested in a better description of the rifling) I do like round ball, and again, if I re-bored such a rifle it would be rifled and twisted for round ball. I consider myself a "roundball guy". !!!

Shooting slugs is fun too, and my .58's fill that nitch, although I recently found that my 1861 repro shoots ball better than minne's or slugs. !! So that's how I load it for hunting now. If I knew grizz was going to attack me at a certain time and day and place, and I wasn't allowed to stay home that day, choosing between my .62" ball rifle/Jeager, and the longer barreled 1861 with a heavy charge behind a minne', I'm not sure what the better choice would be. A choice between penetration and smackdown I guess. I'm not really sure which one would be best for such a scenario, such as a charging Grizz.

 

[M. De Land]

Okay, so it is a slug gun. (I'd still be interested in a better description of the rifling) I do like round ball, and again, if I re-bored such a rifle it would be rifled and twisted for round ball. I consider myself a "roundball guy". !!!

Shooting slugs is fun too, and my .58's fill that nitch, although I recently found that my 1861 repro shoots ball better than minne's or slugs. !! So that's how I load it for hunting now. If I knew grizz was going to attack me at a certain time and day and place, and I wasn't allowed to stay home that day, choosing between my .62" ball rifle/Jeager, and the longer barreled 1861 with a heavy charge behind a minne', I'm not sure what the better choice would be. A choice between penetration and smackdown I guess. I'm not really sure which one would be best for such a scenario, such as a charging Grizz.

I too live, hunt and fish in brown and Grizzly country (AK). I generally avoid single shot guns while hunting in their domain if possible and wear a 4 inch model 29 S&W with Kieth loads at all times, even when cutting wood or going to the out house.
I would feel quite adequately armed though with the .58 Hunter shooting 610 grain maxi's and the short gun in a cross draw.

 

[SDSmlf]

Okay, so it is a slug gun. (I'd still be interested in a better description of the rifling) I do like round ball, and again, if I re-bored such a rifle it would be rifled and twisted for round ball. I consider myself a "roundball guy". !!!

Shooting slugs is fun too, and my .58's fill that nitch, although I recently found that my 1861 repro shoots ball better than minne's or slugs. !! So that's how I load it for hunting now. If I knew grizz was going to attack me at a certain time and day and place, and I wasn't allowed to stay home that day, choosing between my .62" ball rifle/Jeager, and the longer barreled 1861 with a heavy charge behind a minne', I'm not sure what the better choice would be. A choice between penetration and smackdown I guess. I'm not really sure which one would be best for such a scenario, such as a charging Grizz.

Maybe the 58 Hawken Hunter could be downloaded to match 62 caliber round ball’s ‘smackdown’ (whatever that is)? Realistically, the .580 slug has only .020” less frontal diameter than .600” patched roundball, but has nearly twice the weight (610 vs 325 grains) driving it. Would seem counter productive to me to download if I was worrying about ‘charging Grizz’, but to each their own.

I too live, hunt and fish in brown and Grizzly country (AK). I generally avoid single shot guns while hunting in their domain if possible and wear a 4 inch model 29 S&W with Kieth loads at all times, even when cutting wood or going to the out house.
I would feel quite adequately armed though with the .58 Hunter shooting 610 grain maxi's and the short gun in a cross draw.

Agree completely with M. De Land on the backup short gun. I have carried one with five holes in the cylinder that was made in Freedom Wyoming when I was out west and in Alaska, whether hiking or hunting with a muzzleloader, a modern gun or archery equipment.

 

[Eterry]

As far as the musket caps, Val mentioned in his article he installed a musket cap nipple to give more flash to the 180gr charge. Maybe he had musket nipples on all Hawkens...IDK.

Dr. White wrote where he used a musket with minie balls to take a moose at over 300 yards... using about 6 shots to finally connect.
Checking the ballistics the minie holds its energy waaay past where a prb does. It's kinda moot as most shots aren't past 100 steps.

 

[Rat]

I'm thinking that AK has a few more Grizz, and in bigger sizes, (although I did find some giant AK style grizz tracks recently) than Northeast Washington state. Certainly the odds are greater in AK as to a grizz attack, I'm pretty sure I'm more likely to get killed driving to, or from, any of my hunts. Therefore, I just rely on one shot from the rifle, and usually just carry a sidearm that's good for taking small game, such as my Remington Navy.

Anyhow, my bad, I think in terms of round ball guns, and would (do) take a .62 over a .58", and I'd take a .69" over a .62" as long as it didn't result in an over 9 pound gun. The .58 caliber gun in this thread, shooting slugs over insane powder charges, indeed is "enough".

 

[Eddie2002]

Nice score, I have the Buffalo Hunter made by Navy Arms and it came with both a regular #11 nipple and a musket cap nipple in the patch box. That's the model that was taken to Africa. The lock and hammer looks about the same for wear and color when compared to my Buffalo Hunter.

 

[Eterry]

Val took both, his 58 Hawken, which he called his heavy rifle, and Buffalo hunter, his "light" rifle, loaded with 125grs fffg and the same 610gr minie.
I also have a Buffalo hunter, but mine only has the #11 cap nipple. But it has never failed to fire.
I took my last buck with it, a 500 gr minie, and 60grs fffg.

 

[Rat]

Right, my understanding has always been that the "Buffalo Hunter" was the cut-down Reproduction Remington Model 1863 Contract Rifle. There seems to be some confusion here that the Hawken and Buffalo Hunter are the same. ? Perhaps the confusion is mine.

 

[Eddie2002]

From what I understand the Buffalo Hunter was based off the 1863 Contract rifle but came with a heavier barrel, it wasn't just a cut down version of the Remington. When I picked mine up the pawn shop also had a Navy Arms 1863 in .58 caliber and a side by side comparison showed that the Buffalo Hunter had more beef at the breach. Think they came from the same owner which was a shame cause I couldn't afford to buy them both. Ended up with the Buffalo Hunter which was the cheaper of the two and I liked the looks of the shorter rifle with the half stock.
The Hawken is the next step up for powder charges with a much heavier barrel but still has the same lock as the other two guns which is where some of the confusion could be coming from. The stock is different without a patch box while the rest of the hardware is in the Hawken style. I'm not as well versed as some on this board so take what I say with a grain of salt, I might be the confused one not you.

 

[Rat]

I made a "Buffalo Hunter" out of a Miroku "Zouave" when I was young and dumb. Didn't come out that great. It is a nice, short, nasty little gun, but I find I much prefer a 30" barrel for balance and handling, and rarely (never) use it. I do shoot it sometimes. But it was my first muzzle loader, and birthday present from wife, so I won't be getting rid of it any time soon. Just wish I had left it alone.

 

[52Bore]

Picked up a NOS 58 barrel (blank) a few years ago at Friendship. Did some research on these back then.

 

[52Bore]

 

[M. De Land]

I made a "Buffalo Hunter" out of a Miroku "Zouave" when I was young and dumb. Didn't come out that great. It is a nice, short, nasty little gun, but I find I much prefer a 30" barrel for balance and handling, and rarely (never) use it. I do shoot it sometimes. But it was my first muzzle loader, and birthday present from wife, so I won't be getting rid of it any time soon. Just wish I had left it alone.

The Buffalo Hunter is a short version of the .58 Zoave rifle with the same lock, barrel, three groove rifling and forged breech snail threaded for a musket cap.
I once owned a Zoave for a year or two but sold it back to my cousin who I bought it from, when he decided he missed the gun and wanted it back.

 

[roondad]

Today I picked up a hawken Hunter from a friend of mine for a song. What a handful. I am looking forward to shooting it. Do you have suggestions for a place to locate accessories for this beauty ? The bore is clean and bright.

 

[Bad Karma]

Picked up a NOS 58 barrel (blank) a few years ago at Friendship. Did some research on these back then.
View attachment 17214
View attachment 17215

I would rather have the buntline Dragoon with the shoulder stock and original leather scabbard...

 

[Eterry]

Rat, I dream of an African hunt for dangerous game, and have been to the Dallas Safari Club expo over 20xs. There I met Craig Boddington who has probably taken more elephant than any living man. I've talked to him on several occasions and he's a great guy, very down to earth. He's also a leftie and a Marine, which makes him a seiber in my book.

A few years ago he wrote an in depth article about REALLY BIG BORE DGR's. IIRC, he had the opportunity to hunt and take elephants with a 577, 600, and 700 Nitro. His usual preferred rifle is in the 416-458 class.

All the "Big bores " he wrote of used a round nose type solid bullet at approximately 2150fps, the "standard" for DGR'S.

IIRC, He was sorely disappointed by the performance of the 600 and 700, due to lack of penetration. He opined if the bullet shape had been more pointed, penetration may have been better.

Based on his real life experiences I think a larger prb won't penetrate as much as a smaller one, at same velocity.

Should we give up our 58's and 75's for 40 caliber... heck no! But there appears to be a happy medium to be found.

 

[Irish lad]

Rat, I dream of an African hunt for dangerous game, and have been to the Dallas Safari Club expo over 20xs. There I met Craig Boddington who has probably taken more elephant than any living man. I've talked to him on several occasions and he's a great guy, very down to earth. He's also a leftie and a Marine, which makes him a seiber in my book.

A few years ago he wrote an in depth article about REALLY BIG BORE DGR's. IIRC, he had the opportunity to hunt and take elephants with a 577, 600, and 700 Nitro. His usual preferred rifle is in the 416-458 class.

All the "Big bores " he wrote of used a round nose type solid bullet at approximately 2150fps, the "standard" for DGR'S.

IIRC, He was sorely disappointed by the performance of the 600 and 700, due to lack of penetration. He opined if the bullet shape had been more pointed, penetration may have been better.

Based on his real life experiences I think a larger prb won't penetrate as much as a smaller one, at same velocity.

Should we give up our 58's and 75's for 40 caliber... heck no! But there appears to be a happy medium to be found. View attachment 19644

Colonel Boddington is one of a kind.
His advice was very helpful before my first African hunt in 1991.
He had been selected for promotion to Brigadier General shortly before his retirement from the Corps.
Semper Fidelis,
Irish

 

[Eterry]

I've always appreciated the honesty in his writing... if he missed, or made a bad shot he told you. Most other writers of the day always made 400 yard running heart shots and were immune to recoil.

I've had the chance to meet several outdoor writers at the DSC, some are very arrogant and self centered. Craig Boddington is not.

The first time we met was early one morning at the DSC in a coffee shop. We stopped to coffee up and there he sat alone writing notes. I had brought 3 of his books to try and get autographs later at the lecture.

I walked up and said "excuse me, Mr. Boddington? " he looked up, smiled, stuck out his hand and said, "please call me Craig ". Then he invited me to sit down and we talked about 10 minutes. He signed my books, we swapped email addresses and I was hooked on this guy!

I usually try to time my trip to the DSC around his lectures, which are priceless to my way of thinking.

I remember reading his articles when he was Lt. Boddington. That's been a few days ago.