"neck" knives

[Black Hand]

https://www.google.com/search?tbs=c....1.64.psy-ab..2.1.183...33i10k1.0.4hjwMFHbjac

Captain Cook describing Neck Knives only being used as weapons, but the location is difficult to discern - likely the South Pacific: https://books.google.com/books?id=...v=onepage&q=knife sheath captain cook&f=false

One must recognize the evidence for knives & other cutting implements being worn in or suspended from a belt throughout history is undeniable. Otzi comes to mind as the first example. We also know that knives were worn about the neck by certain peoples. Context is important - even if done in one location by a certain group in no way suggests it was done that same way by another group in another location....

 

[Black Hand]

"A tomahawk and scalping-knife, of English manufacture, were in his girdle..."
James Fenimore Cooper, 1831

"They now proceed to arm, suspending the bow and quiver, or, more frequently, the musket, from the shoulder, the hatchet or tomahawk from the hand, while the scalping-knife is stuck in the girdle. A portion of parched corn or sagamity..."
Hugh Murray, 1840

"The scalping-knife in a beautiful scabbard, which is carried under the belt, is the form of knife most generally used in all..."
George Catlin, 1842

"Their arms are a fusil, or rifle, a powder horn, a shot-pouch, a tomahawk, and a scalping-knife hanging to their neck."
The Gentleman's Magazine, and Historical Chronicle, Volume 36, E. Cave, 1766

 

[Elnathan]

https://www.google.com/search?tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1700%2Ccd_max%3A1800&tbm=bks&ei=_UOmW4jsAYO7zwKUt5iABA&q=knife+sheath+belt&oq=knife+sheath+belt&gs_l=psy-ab.3...29101.30761.0.31459.7.7.0.0.0.0.211.918.0j4j1.5.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..2.1.183...33i10k1.0.4hjwMFHbjac

Captain Cook describing Neck Knives only being used as weapons, but the location is difficult to discern - likely the South Pacific: https://books.google.com/books?id=...v=onepage&q=knife sheath captain cook&f=false

One must recognize the evidence for knives & other cutting implements being worn in or suspended from a belt throughout history is undeniable. Otzi comes to mind as the first example. We also know that knives were worn about the neck by certain peoples. Context is important - even if done in one location by a certain group in no way suggests it was done that same way by another group in another location....

Sorry, I must not have been as clear as I thought I was being. My point was that the lack of documentation for an item is is significant in proportion to how much information we can reasonably expect to find for it if it was present.

Ergo, if we want a thorough answer, part of examining the evidence for neck knife use among white frontiersmen and trappers really ought to include an examination of descriptions of belt knives among white white frontiersmen and trappers as well - if the sources routinely refer to wearing knives on the belt, than the absence of references to neck knives is pretty strong evidence that they weren't used, the dog that doesn't bark so to speak, whereas of mention of sheath or carry locations are rare in general, the absence of references to knives carried on the neck is carries less weight.

In pseudo-scientific terms, I'm suggesting using the database of belt-knife references as a control group to judge the significance of lack of references to neck knives among the same population group.

I guess I should make clear that I am not asking for an answer here and now, but making a suggestion how anyone interested in pursuing the subject further. I don't think that it is possible to do the research in the time-frame that these threads usually last.

Personally, I think neck knives were probably rare to nonexistent among whites, and that we would probably learn more by discussing why they weren't used more widely rather than arguing about if it is OK to wear one, a question that tends to devolved down to reenactors' convention rather than history per se. I'm not a reenactor, though, so my priorities tend to be a bit different than most on this site.

 

[Rifleman1776]

True - but from what I remember, the Scandanavians did not come to this continent in any number until the 19th century...

That is one of the most mysterious issues that arises in early American history. The 'white' indians. Complete with Christian symbols and beliefs. https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2017/10/the-mysterious-tribe-of-blue-eyed-native-americans/

 

[Snapper]

I'm a bit late to this party but if my memory serves me correctly, in Steve Delisle's book on the French milice he specifies that each man was required to have 3 knives; a neck knife, one held on by their sash and another attached to their leg. I'm not sure where he was able to research this information but I know this book is considered the one to read if you're researching French milice.

That's all for now. Take care and until next time....be well.

snapper

 

[Cruzatte]

The DeLisle book quotes two French Canadian sources: Bouganville, aide de camp to General Montcalm; and Bourlamaque, colonel and third in charge of French regular troops.

 

[50cal.cliff]

Rifleman, just read what you posted.
https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2017/10/the-mysterious-tribe-of-blue-eyed-native-americans/

When I finished I realized I was sitting here with my mouth hanging open.
Never heard of this. Very interesting read!!

 

[Toklo Etee]

Guys,
I saw this thread and wanted to add these quotes:

"As neither of them had any weapons, except a long knife round their neck in a sheath they were afraid to attack him, on so hazardous a lay"

"the barbarous artist speedily draw their long sharp-pointed scalping knife out of a sheath from their breast"

Both quotes are from "History of the American Indians- James Adair"

Adair was a Southern Scottish Deerskin trader of the mid 18th Century. He spent most of his time with the Chickasaw but had dealings with all the Southern Tribes.
To parrot what is already started.....these are not the small knives that are seen today as (patch knifes , ect)..they are full sized English & French scalpers. The reproduction knife pictured was crafted by Steve Marshall and it is 11 1/2 long. It's dimensions were taken off an original.
The sheah is my interpretation as there are no extant southern sheaths that have known to survive. My sheath is painted with pigment (again interpretation ) Quill work is not unkown in the South but it is not as common an art form as used by the Northern Tribes.....that is the reason I stayed away from it for this item.
David

 

[Rifleman1776]

Rifleman, just read what you posted.
https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2017/10/the-mysterious-tribe-of-blue-eyed-native-americans/

When I finished I realized I was sitting here with my mouth hanging open.
Never heard of this. Very interesting read!!

You can close your mouth now. There is much history we do not know and probably never will. But, the upside is, once we do know everything there will be no more to discuss here.

 

[tenngun]

Yep, and apparently NOT often seen on whites not living as Indians.

As for the smaller knives having no use except for food and finger nails, well, I wear one as a neck knife when hunting, because it's in a handy location, AND it is small and very sharp, and I find it excellent both for field dressing a deer as well as for skinning.

So I'm wrong, but it does work, and the rawhide liner in the doeskin sheath does prevent it from going through the sheath when I put it away.

LD

I think that’s important. Joe the frontiersman saw a neck knife used by an Indian, said ‘there’s a neat idea’ and made one for him self. But never met an artist or a journalist that wrote it down or painted it. To me the’re a pia, mine lasted one or two trips in the field, but to each there own. Gage’damores We’re popular with French frontiersman but I found them a pia also.... even thought they are easily documented.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well I don't doubt that since the Indians wore them on a strap around the neck, there were folks who disdained that as they abhorred any mimicry of the Indians..., would there have been enough of that viewpoint to make they so rare it's better to not wear one as such? I don't know. It may have depended upon the local community and that community's view of the Indians.

LD

 

[Toklo Etee]

Well I don't doubt that since the Indians wore them on a strap around the neck, there were folks who disdained that as they abhorred any mimicry of the Indians..., would there have been enough of that viewpoint to make they so rare it's better to not wear one as such? I don't know. It may have depended upon the local community and that community's view of the Indians.

LD

I think this is an excellent point...From a European point of view, some groups had a less than friendly relationship with local tribes(even if it was of there own making) This is the reason why I like many others agree that the wearing of neck knifes is VERY over represented by individuals portraying non Native personas.......
With that said,
"Among these was a corporal of the Halwill regiment who, in order to avoid the customary Swiss execution, being sawed in two, stabbed himself with a knife which he wore around his neck Indian fashion"
Jean-Bernards Bossu's Travels in the Interior of North America 1758

This incident happened in Mobile, Alabama. This guy was a Swiss mercenary that along with others killed their tyrant commanding officer.
Along with the quote from JCB mentioned earlier concerning Canadian militia knife carriage here are my thoughts:

Both incidents involve French related individuals that due to their location have Indian allies close at hand(At Fort Toulouse the Alabama village of Pecana was about 100 yards away) or have been on campaign long enough to observe and mimic what the Native allies are wearing.
This along with the Adair quotes also supports that neck knifes among the Southern Tribes was probably common. There are MANY extant Northern examples so this phenomenon seems to run the Eastern North America.

 

[tenngun]

One thing I would note is even people that dispised Indians often adopted Indian things. Leggings were not much different then canvas covers, but moccs breachclots ect became common.
Some of it was a badge of having been on the frontier.
Indian food quickly became a mainstream diet. Corn of course but squashes and native beans was on the table of the worse Indian hater. So, I would not be surprised if someone adopted an Indian style knife even if he was an Indian fighter.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Ah but then you have examples of different groups within communities and different ideas side-by-side as well. Christopher Gist, frontier scout, and personal scout for General George Washington, as well as personal friend and having once saved George's life...., was refused admittance to make his report to Washington, and it was important information..., until Gist had changed from "Indian dress" into more suitable clothing to appear before "His Excellency".

Doddridge documents the wearing of breechclout and leggings even in church, was popular for the young teen males, but was disdained by the older men. Teen males then and now do like to shock the older generation. So it might be the case that a younger man might wear one along with his leggings and breechclout, but a man who once adorned himself with such an item might not wear a neck knife (and perhaps beads and even an earring) as he had become "respectable".

(Just the other day the few of my cohorts and I, that I ran with as a teen, gathered together, and we remarked how odd it was that WE had become respectable. A Police Detective, a CEO, an aerospace engineer for a reknown company, a couple of corporate vice presidents...we were also amazed that all of us still had ten fingers and two good eyes, considering the stupid stuff we did as kids...but that's another story for another part of the forum at another time. )

LD

 

[Ketchakah]

Hatito Friends,
I very seldom talk about opinions, but in the spirit of discussion, Perhaps i may interject one opinion as well. This subject is a very common point of discussion. I will point out that one must never say "Never" or "Always" for there will always be the exception. (pun intended)

That said, IMHO the tiny nail trimmers that so many buckskinners carry around their necks while handy, are wrong and not historical on any level, so lets disregard those. Carry a folder in your pocket. That's documented.

For a White working man to temporarily hang a knife around their neck is a distinct possibility. However, as one who uses a neck knife, for some tasks, a belt sheath is a much better choice. Bending over to do ground work is a PIA.

European persons using Native decorated stuff is entirely documented. However, the specifics of place and time may be a point to consider. There are many pictures of frontier commanders all dressed up in NDN (Indian - No not offensive to me anyway) dress. British Indian department officers did this, but it is unknown if they did it when heading out on campaign or just for paintings. Americans were less apt to this due to the extreme level of animosity towards Natives. What George Washington called "Indian Walking Dress" was not necessarily what it sounds.

As far as the Native decorated sheaths and accouterments that we tend to see used alot by Europeans, allow me to forward some thoughts.

Native decorated objects, specifically knife sheaths, can come from several sources. Trade, gift, stolen, or battle pick up. The usage of one by a white actually living WITH Natives is also a definite possibility.

Something that few people consider, is that Native artwork and styles can be very specific to Tribe, Band or Nation. Although i do not know all the patterns, I can frequently spot a Shawnee traditional pattern in a box of random quillwork. Europeans seem to think that Native artwork was random and for pleasure. This is not true, The colors and patterns were like banners of identification and different Native Nations could recognize each other by their adornment. I have a specific pattern that is unique to me, My family and friends know it. They know where it came from.

Let us suppose a person acquired a knife sheath from a particular nation, the method is irrelevant, and you came across another member of that tribe. The first question would be, "where did you get that ?" Ya better have a convincing answer. And if the said sheath was from someone that the Indians knew personally and had not seen in a while, You are probably in a bit of trouble.

The second would be if you contacted a rival Tribe or Nation. This could go either way. One might be seen as a friend for killing the said rival and taking the sheath, or an enemy should the decision be made that you got it as a gift or through friendly trade. Don't walk into a Lakota camp with a Crow war shirt. It will be a long night for you. Eastern Indians were the same.

Its kind of what Soldiers went thru when they picked up battlefield souvenirs and then were captured by the enemy. Things could go very very bad for them.

Then there is the rivalry factor. A lot of killings went on because one group traded with another and there was animosity by a third due to competition. Indians were known to kill another Indian because they traded with the wrong group of traders. The same would apply to Europeans. The early frontier was a rough place.

So what this boils down to, is what is your historical perspective ? Are you trying to do something historically correct or just a mish-mash of stuff that you find pleasing. It's ok either way, but the two do not mix well.

 

[tenngun]

A factor we should keep in mind was how plastic Indian culture was. The classic ‘plains’ culture evolved inabout fifty years. Women were captured and usually quickly adopted in to other tribes, and they often brought new ways with them.
Men too, often ran in to enemy groups when a fight was inpractical so instead they smoked and traded clothing and went separate ways.
Indians soon found out there was a white market for Indian made goods, and made things whites wanted.
Marked brich bark containers were made for trade in late eighteenth century with animal motifs for white trade. Earlier examples had geometric designs. Bead work also became popular in floral designs, in cultures where from wailer times geometric had been common. Infact Great Lake floral often came to look much like central Eastern European designs.
Proper clothing was very important then. Even Wellington was refused entry in to a formal restaurant in the 1820s for long trousers instead of breeches.
Not just in America, but all over the world, men who went beyond the pale came back with native garb and equipment. Much of it with out any refused to the native use of it.
The cross over was also true. Native sellers could fashion a yarn or two to add weight to a common item.

 

[Dave Orchard]

Some beautiful examples shown in pix in this thread!
My comment concerns size & carry, not historical context.

I wear a 3 1/2" cutting edge blade any time I am not in the shower.
I use this knife as a tool, for food prep, cleaning game, even slicing bread.
I wear it in a lanyard I can barely get over my fat head & past my big snout, so it doesn't dangle or swing.
I usually carry tucked inside my shirt til I have use for it since even some in modern rural society don't even carry pocket knives and knives of any kind make some people uncomfortable.

If I carry on a belt, pistol or sheath knife, Arthritus and repeated damage to r.hip has made cross-draw more practical for carry for ME.

I stitched a scabbard for a scalper made from an old Sabatier kitchen knife I cut-down & re-hafted onto the body side of my shot pouch worn on my left hip, and this works very well, for ME, but since I only wear my shot pouch when I am carrying my short fusil, my neck knife takes up the EDC slack.
Also, a neck knife is way handier in a canoe, or in the water if you flip one than on your belt, and about the only practical way to carry a fixed-blade if you wear bib over-alls.
Dave

 

[PluggedNickel]

I don’t know, but I would guess boot/leg knives were much more common. What say you?

 

[Cruzatte]

I don’t know, but I would guess boot/leg knives were much more common. What say you?

I've seen a few reenactors who portray Canadian Milice stuffing a third knife in their legging's garters.

Personally I only carry at most two knives; one tucked into my sash for general utility, and a folding knife either in my shot pouch, or waist coat pocket.

 

[mrstang01]

What sort of folding knife would have been likely in a possibles bag?