Need advise for sizing die purchase

[glenniconway]

Hello all, new guy here and I'm seeking some opinions about a bullet sizing die for 58 caliber minie' bullets.

Very new to muzzle loading black powder rifles and I recently purchased my first BP rifle, I became the proud owner of a genuine Parker-Hale 3 band 1853 Enfield musket.

I'm an experienced shooter, reloader and bullet caster when it comes to modern revolver caliber guns. So, along with my purchase of the Enfield I bought a Lee minie' bullet mold and I already have on hand a large quantity of stick-on wheel weights for my lead source.

The Lee mold is supposed to drop rounds at .575, but mine is dropping them on the fat side at about .577-.578

I have been to the range twice with my new gun and experienced mixed results. Both range trips ended prematurely after shooting less that 8-10 rounds and then going home and spending time learning how to remove stuck bullets.

The rounds that I have pulled are calipered at .576-.577, so I'm starting out ramming home rounds at or slightly bigger than my bore. I would like to correct this by running my castings through a bullet sizer to get them sized correctly and uniform.

The thinking behind the minie' style bullet is that you can load undersized projectiles and under pressure the skirt expands, grabs the rifling and one can get accurate shots down range.

So, my bore measures right at .5765 and I would like to be able to load and shoot several dozen rounds without any major cleaning. In addition, I want good skirt expansion for consistent accuracy.

My question is: What size bullet sizer does everyone recommend? I'm thinking .575 but that's only .0015 less than bore. Maybe .574 or .573??

Thanks in advance.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Dave951 here is a very experienced N-So Skirmish Assoc shooter and advises a Mine 0.001" below the bore size. A NSSA friend of mine, who uses machined ground plug gauges to ascertain the bore size advises 0.002" under. Maybe the difference between the 2 gentlemen's advice is either their gauging method (gauges can be found in various tolerances, +/-) or their technique.

Another factor is 'how thick' the skirt is on your particular Minie, but that more so correlates to the powder charge to fully expand it without tearing it off, so to speak. FWIW I've had great success going with the 2-thou under method.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@glenniconway is using the stick on wheel weights as the source to cast his Minie' balls in a 0.575 mold. Even these wheel weights will have other materials to alloy them and are not pure lead. Soft certainly, but not pure lead. The alloys will cast larger than a pure lead casting. Sizing his slightly oversized Minie' balls to 0.001 to 0.002 under his bore diameter or to 0.575 will help in the loading. It would help if we knew the specific mold he has so we can know what skirt he has .

 

[HSmithTX]

As far as size goes I would buy some sample bullets, some of the sample packs have different sizes in them, and use what works well to pick the size rather than try measuring and paying for a die and hoping it's right. The part of measuring I don't trust is the 98% of the bore you can't get to for measuring...... Lee makes the most economical sizing die I am aware of, a very simple push-through die that mounts in your single stage press and a ram that mounts where the shellholder would go. You will probably have to modify the ram to keep it from deforming the cavity but that should be pretty simple. I'd start by waxing a bullet cavity pretty well and putting a small dab of JB Weld or something on the top of the ram, and push the bullet maybe halfway though and let the weight of the handle hold everything in place while the epoxy cures, then push the bullet on through and retract the ram. The Lee dies are relatively easy to open up a half thousandth or so, maybe a thousandth if you're good, and keep round so if you err in selection I would err a hair to the small side. Split dowel and fine paper works good.

 

[Trot]

How did you measure your bore? Plug gauges are the easiest and most accurate. If your measurement is accurate, I wouldn't go under .575. Accuracy will suffer and the bore may foul even worse as the bullet is not expanding to scrape the bore. I don't know what the stick on wheel weights contain, but pure leas is an absolute must!

 

[dave951]

Hello all, new guy here and I'm seeking some opinions about a bullet sizing die for 58 caliber minie' bullets.

Very new to muzzle loading black powder rifles and I recently purchased my first BP rifle, I became the proud owner of a genuine Parker-Hale 3 band 1853 Enfield musket.

I'm an experienced shooter, reloader and bullet caster when it comes to modern revolver caliber guns. So, along with my purchase of the Enfield I bought a Lee minie' bullet mold and I already have on hand a large quantity of stick-on wheel weights for my lead source.

The Lee mold is supposed to drop rounds at .575, but mine is dropping them on the fat side at about .577-.578

I have been to the range twice with my new gun and experienced mixed results. Both range trips ended prematurely after shooting less that 8-10 rounds and then going home and spending time learning how to remove stuck bullets.

The rounds that I have pulled are calipered at .576-.577, so I'm starting out ramming home rounds at or slightly bigger than my bore. I would like to correct this by running my castings through a bullet sizer to get them sized correctly and uniform.

The thinking behind the minie' style bullet is that you can load undersized projectiles and under pressure the skirt expands, grabs the rifling and one can get accurate shots down range.

So, my bore measures right at .5765 and I would like to be able to load and shoot several dozen rounds without any major cleaning. In addition, I want good skirt expansion for consistent accuracy.

My question is: What size bullet sizer does everyone recommend? I'm thinking .575 but that's only .0015 less than bore. Maybe .574 or .573??

Thanks in advance.

Step 1- avoid wheel weights of any type.
Step 2- don't use Lee if you want best possible results.
Step 3- best sizing dies- Tom Crone.

You need to post your powder and load data as well. That means brand and type of powder and caps, lube, and style of minie. I have yet to find a Lee minie design that will shoot well. A PH set up properly is a thing of beauty.

42gr 3f Old E, RWS caps, RCBS Hogdon minie, beeswax/lard lube

 

[glenniconway]

Dave951, yes sir, .001-.002 under bore size. And skirt thickness plays a roll in performance all so. Thank you.

Grenadier1758, my Lee Bullet Mold is a 575-500 M single cavity, Lee part number-90481

HSmithTX, yes sir, I’m very familiar with Lee bullet sizer kits as I use them for other casting's. You have a good point about the ram and having to modify it to work with the minie’ bullets. Thank you.

Trot, I measured the bullets that I pulled from the bore to determine bore dimension. “Slugging” the bore is the way I have done my revolvers in the past. I came up with .5765 as an average of three different pulled bullets measuring each multiple times. You recommend .575 for sizing, got it, thanks. Yes sir, stick on wheel weights aren’t 100% pure but I have a very large quantity of them as byproduct from collecting regular WW over the years and I understand they are very soft.

Dave951, step 1, ok, but I have on hand huge amount of SOWW lead and that was a consideration when deciding to get into BP shooting. Step 2, yes sir, I’m aware of the quality of Lee products, but they tend to work and be a good value. Step 3, thank you, I will check that out. Reminder, I’m brand new to BP, but I’m using the Lee version of a minie’ projectile at about 520-530 grains, 60 grains of Schuetzen FF powder, CCI multipurpose caps, and I have tried two lubes so far: 8 to 1 beeswax/lamb tallow and OX-Yoke wonder lube.
Yes, I’m hoping to get my Parker Hale dialed in, of course like most fire arms it’s inherently way more accurate than I am. Very impressive group you have, how many yards? My first goal is to try to be able to hold a 3”-4” group, off hand at 100 yards.

​

 

[tjiann]

For what it's worth, I've got a 3-band original British P-H. I use the same Lee MB .575 mold, casts true to that size with pure soft lead, and those work well. I also had bought some "improved Minies" from I believe Dixie that were .577. I size them down to .576 with a die from Northeast in PA. Those work well too. But if you really want to shoot all afternoon without fouling issues at some point, try some .550 Boxer (what folks call Pritchett) bullets in paper cartridges.

 

[dave951]

Dave951, step 1, ok, but I have on hand huge amount of SOWW lead and that was a consideration when deciding to get into BP shooting. Step 2, yes sir, I’m aware of the quality of Lee products, but they tend to work and be a good value. Step 3, thank you, I will check that out. Reminder, I’m brand new to BP, but I’m using the Lee version of a minie’ projectile at about 520-530 grains, 60 grains of Schuetzen FF powder, CCI multipurpose caps, and I have tried two lubes so far: 8 to 1 beeswax/lamb tallow and OX-Yoke wonder lube.
Yes, I’m hoping to get my Parker Hale dialed in, of course like most fire arms it’s inherently way more accurate than I am. Very impressive group you have, how many yards? My first goal is to try to be able to hold a 3”-4” group, off hand at 100 yards.

Forget the WW even if they are "soft" stick ons. You need dead soft lead. As for Lee minies, I have only one Lee mold that will shoot acceptably well in either of my PHs and Lee has discontinued it. I strongly recommend RCBS Hogdon or Moose International, or Moose Hogdon.

As for your load. You'll probably find that 3f Swiss works best. It's all I shoot in competition. There is absolutely no need to use 60g 2f when 45g 3f yields better accuracy with less fouling. Besides, 45g 3f is pretty much the equivalent of 53g 2f. But some folks get hung up on the "service" load and don't take into account we don't have any commercial powder that is the equivalent of what was used in the 19th century. Curious collectors have broken down period ammunition to find that original "2f" actually is more like 1-1.5f. Want to shoot 3-4" groups at 100yd? Won't happen with CCI caps. Go with either Scheutzen or RWS if you can find them. Next, the nipple is a wear item, keep some spares on hand. Also know this, these guns are wind sensitive. A 5mph breeze at the target can affect group size. Heavier minies are less affected than light ones. For lube I use beeswax/lard with a touch of lanolin. In head to head testing no other concoction came close.

As for the gun itself, some like to dismount the barrel each time for cleaning. I dismount mine once a year to renew the wax underneath. Accuracy can be greatly affected by the torque of the tang screw and I highly recommend getting a torque screwdriver for tang screw removal. Also do your rifling a favor and use a brass ramrod. Check your tang inletting. This area is critical.

The group in my first pic was 50yd. Here's some others-
Parker Hale Musketoon at 100yd. RCBS Hogdon, 43g 3f Old E, RWS caps, beeswax/lard

And another recent one out of my other PH-
First cold bore shot went high, next 4 into one hole.

 

[LME]

Forget the WW even if they are "soft" stick ons. You need dead soft lead. As for Lee minies, I have only one Lee mold that will shoot acceptably well in either of my PHs and Lee has discontinued it. I strongly recommend RCBS Hogdon or Moose International, or Moose Hogdon.

As for your load. You'll probably find that 3f Swiss works best. It's all I shoot in competition. There is absolutely no need to use 60g 2f when 45g 3f yields better accuracy with less fouling. Besides, 45g 3f is pretty much the equivalent of 53g 2f. But some folks get hung up on the "service" load and don't take into account we don't have any commercial powder that is the equivalent of what was used in the 19th century. Curious collectors have broken down period ammunition to find that original "2f" actually is more like 1-1.5f. Want to shoot 3-4" groups at 100yd? Won't happen with CCI caps. Go with either Scheutzen or RWS if you can find them. Next, the nipple is a wear item, keep some spares on hand. Also know this, these guns are wind sensitive. A 5mph breeze at the target can affect group size. Heavier minies are less affected than light ones. For lube I use beeswax/lard with a touch of lanolin. In head to head testing no other concoction came close.

As for the gun itself, some like to dismount the barrel each time for cleaning. I dismount mine once a year to renew the wax underneath. Accuracy can be greatly affected by the torque of the tang screw and I highly recommend getting a torque screwdriver for tang screw removal. Also do your rifling a favor and use a brass ramrod. Check your tang inletting. This area is critical.

The group in my first pic was 50yd. Here's some others-
Parker Hale Musketoon at 100yd. RCBS Hogdon, 43g 3f Old E, RWS caps, beeswax/lard
View attachment 212712

And another recent one out of my other PH-
First cold bore shot went high, next 4 into one hole.
View attachment 212713

Nice groups! People like yourself know what works best generally. I have 100 yard targets very similar to yours but I have had people doubting that I shot these groups. I had to get them on the range to prove it can be done. You need to post more about the way you shoot.

 

[tjiann]

Forget the WW even if they are "soft" stick ons. You need dead soft lead. As for Lee minies, I have only one Lee mold that will shoot acceptably well in either of my PHs and Lee has discontinued it. I strongly recommend RCBS Hogdon or Moose International, or Moose Hogdon.

As for your load. You'll probably find that 3f Swiss works best. It's all I shoot in competition. There is absolutely no need to use 60g 2f when 45g 3f yields better accuracy with less fouling. Besides, 45g 3f is pretty much the equivalent of 53g 2f. But some folks get hung up on the "service" load and don't take into account we don't have any commercial powder that is the equivalent of what was used in the 19th century. Curious collectors have broken down period ammunition to find that original "2f" actually is more like 1-1.5f. Want to shoot 3-4" groups at 100yd? Won't happen with CCI caps. Go with either Scheutzen or RWS if you can find them. Next, the nipple is a wear item, keep some spares on hand. Also know this, these guns are wind sensitive. A 5mph breeze at the target can affect group size. Heavier minies are less affected than light ones. For lube I use beeswax/lard with a touch of lanolin. In head to head testing no other concoction came close.

As for the gun itself, some like to dismount the barrel each time for cleaning. I dismount mine once a year to renew the wax underneath. Accuracy can be greatly affected by the torque of the tang screw and I highly recommend getting a torque screwdriver for tang screw removal. Also do your rifling a favor and use a brass ramrod. Check your tang inletting. This area is critical.

The group in my first pic was 50yd. Here's some others-
Parker Hale Musketoon at 100yd. RCBS Hogdon, 43g 3f Old E, RWS caps, beeswax/lard
View attachment 212712

And another recent one out of my other PH-
First cold bore shot went high, next 4 into one hole.
View attachment 212713

Really impressive. What torque do you recommend for the tang? Thanks.

 

[dave951]

Really impressive. What torque do you recommend for the tang? Thanks.

That depends on the individual gun. The first thing to check is the inletting by removing the barrel and mounting the stock in a vise or something similar to hold it steady. Next, lay the barrel in it's channel and install the tang screw. If the barrel rises in the front out of the channel as the tang screw is tightened, it's not properly inletted. Forcing the barrel back down by installing the barrel bands induces stress that will lead to inaccuracy. Ideally, the barrel should not move when the tang screw is tightened. Exactly what torque is a function of your individual rifle and has to be determined through experimentation.

If your barrel rises, and your competition rules allow, then the tang needs to be glass bedded. Some competitions don't allow glass, but they do allow period methods such as shims made from paper. When we glass bed in the N-SSA, that's exactly the area we're looking at. In both my PHs, with the tang screw in, the barrel doesn't rise from the channel.

 

[dave951]

Nice groups! People like yourself know what works best generally. I have 100 yard targets very similar to yours but I have had people doubting that I shot these groups. I had to get them on the range to prove it can be done. You need to post more about the way you shoot.

Many of the pix I've posted are the results from lots of testing for what actually works. But I will say this, modern bench techniques generally don't work well with our guns, especially the "long rifles". The reason is due to internal ballistics of the rifle with a heavy bullet and black powder. In a modern arm, the bullet is pretty much exiting the barrel in milliseconds before the gun can move much from recoil while in our arms, the gun is moving into recoil well before that time. It's just a function of 2800fps v 1200fps.

The other issue is the harmonic frequency of the barrel in recoil. All gun barrels vibrate when fired and the exact frequency is a function of a bunch of factors like thickness, length, caliber/size ratio, stock design and so on. So to keep it simple, when fired, the barrel vibrates and it is moving generally up and down across the X axis (aim). If the bullet exits at the moment when the barrel is at X=0, you'll see the group tighten up and that's known as the Null point. Many guns exhibit more than one null as powder charges go up or down or bullet weight goes up or down.

Many black powder shooters think using a modern bench hold and locking the barrel down is the best way to determine accuracy but not really. All you do is change the vibration frequency so when you switch to offhand shooting, the POI (Point of Impact) will change along with group size and sometimes by a startling amount. If you think I'm joking, do a deep dive into BPCR (Black Powder Cartridge Rifle) stuff. Those guys go to great lengths to find the Null spot on a barrel and that's where they rest it on their X sticks.

Fundamentals are critical. No shortcuts here. I can't tell you how many shooters I've instructed who will always cant the gun about 5deg to the right and wonder why they missed. Probably the worst culprit in poor offhand shooting with muzzleloaders is lifting the head as the shot is fired. Do that and you'll miss 12in high at 100yd almost every time. The key to successful black powder shooting, as in golf, is executing fundamentals if the gear is good. There is no magic, no rocket science, and no shortcuts.

Now if I just had the same eyesight I had at 21yo I'd be really having a good time..... I had 20/10 at that time and could see BBs in flight out of my pellet gun and BB rifle.

Back to the Parkers, shooting minies and getting accuracy isn't rocket science and I've freely shared how to do it. Some want to shoot the "original" service load, but that really isn't happening since we can only approximate the load and I'm just not into that. With that in mind, I'd rather deep dive into just what is possible with these guns.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Step 3- best sizing dies- Tom Crone.

AWESOME info from Dave951 and I am sooooo glad that he chimed in on this post, which is what I told the OP to hope for. Thanks Dave!

Sooooo … what type of sizing dies does Tom offer? Does it fit a standard reloading press and is a push-through die? How to reach Tom?

 

[dave951]

AWESOME info from Dave951 and I am sooooo glad that he chimed in on this post, which is what I told the OP to hope for. Thanks Dave!

Sooooo … what type of sizing dies does Tom offer? Does it fit a standard reloading press and is a push-through die? How to reach Tom?

Tom makes custom sizes for whatever you want and they are threaded for a standard reloading press. Each die comes with a plunger that mounts to the ram of the press.

Tom doesn't have a website but here's how to contact him-
Tom Crone
301-473-5699
Be sure to tell him a fellow N-SSA member referred you.

 

[LME]

Many of the pix I've posted are the results from lots of testing for what actually works. But I will say this, modern bench techniques generally don't work well with our guns, especially the "long rifles". The reason is due to internal ballistics of the rifle with a heavy bullet and black powder. In a modern arm, the bullet is pretty much exiting the barrel in milliseconds before the gun can move much from recoil while in our arms, the gun is moving into recoil well before that time. It's just a function of 2800fps v 1200fps.

The other issue is the harmonic frequency of the barrel in recoil. All gun barrels vibrate when fired and the exact frequency is a function of a bunch of factors like thickness, length, caliber/size ratio, stock design and so on. So to keep it simple, when fired, the barrel vibrates and it is moving generally up and down across the X axis (aim). If the bullet exits at the moment when the barrel is at X=0, you'll see the group tighten up and that's known as the Null point. Many guns exhibit more than one null as powder charges go up or down or bullet weight goes up or down.

Many black powder shooters think using a modern bench hold and locking the barrel down is the best way to determine accuracy but not really. All you do is change the vibration frequency so when you switch to offhand shooting, the POI (Point of Impact) will change along with group size and sometimes by a startling amount. If you think I'm joking, do a deep dive into BPCR (Black Powder Cartridge Rifle) stuff. Those guys go to great lengths to find the Null spot on a barrel and that's where they rest it on their X sticks.

Fundamentals are critical. No shortcuts here. I can't tell you how many shooters I've instructed who will always cant the gun about 5deg to the right and wonder why they missed. Probably the worst culprit in poor offhand shooting with muzzleloaders is lifting the head as the shot is fired. Do that and you'll miss 12in high at 100yd almost every time. The key to successful black powder shooting, as in golf, is executing fundamentals if the gear is good. There is no magic, no rocket science, and no shortcuts.

Now if I just had the same eyesight I had at 21yo I'd be really having a good time..... I had 20/10 at that time and could see BBs in flight out of my pellet gun and BB rifle.

Back to the Parkers, shooting minies and getting accuracy isn't rocket science and I've freely shared how to do it. Some want to shoot the "original" service load, but that really isn't happening since we can only approximate the load and I'm just not into that. With that in mind, I'd rather deep dive into just what is possible with these guns.

A lot can happen between when the trigger is pulled and the bullet/ball leaves the barrel.It may appear fast but in relation to a rifle and retaining accuracy it is slow. I have seen several of the things you mentioned happen with modern weapons. Lock time is one of the biggest killers of accuracy. When comparing modern rifes to M.L. on moving targets the lead gap difference of the two is huge and you do need to consider the speed of each . I also see that some people just don't take the time needed to perfect their shooting. I liken it to a baby trying to run when it hasn't even walked yet?

 

[tjiann]

That depends on the individual gun. The first thing to check is the inletting by removing the barrel and mounting the stock in a vise or something similar to hold it steady. Next, lay the barrel in it's channel and install the tang screw. If the barrel rises in the front out of the channel as the tang screw is tightened, it's not properly inletted. Forcing the barrel back down by installing the barrel bands induces stress that will lead to inaccuracy. Ideally, the barrel should not move when the tang screw is tightened. Exactly what torque is a function of your individual rifle and has to be determined through experimentation.

If your barrel rises, and your competition rules allow, then the tang needs to be glass bedded. Some competitions don't allow glass, but they do allow period methods such as shims made from paper. When we glass bed in the N-SSA, that's exactly the area we're looking at. In both my PHs, with the tang screw in, the barrel doesn't rise from the channel.

I just did this test on my PH P53. No inletting issues. Had stock secure and perfectly level. Barrel did not rise as I tightened tang screw. I ended up tightening to a 20 in lb torque. Also waxed the stock under the barrel and won't remove for cleaning again for a while. I'll move on now to some of your other insights on bullets and powder charges. I have plenty of RWS caps, so that won't be an issue.

I will also do this same procedure on my PH 61 musketoon and original Enfield P53.

Thanks again for your insights. Really helpful to those of us who are new to these types of guns.

 

[45man]

I always used a Minie at a thumb push fit. Bore size.
Watch stick on weights, I sorted them out and after melting I had a pot of zinc.

 

[glenniconway]

I would like to thank all y’all who commented concerning my question on what size bullet sizer I should purchase.

I have decided and have ordered a new press mounted push through sizing die at .575 from Northeast trading company. Total cost was $64.60 shipped. It’s supposed to arrive in about three days.

I plan to dip my unsized minie’ bullets in melted 8 to 1 beeswax/Lamb tallow and then run them through my new die.
I’m hoping for uniformity sized bullets with lube nicely filled grooves that are ready to load.

Does anyone see a downside to this course of action?