Need Help Identifying an "India" Pattern 3rd Model Brown Bess

[Cavalier]

Hello everyone,

This is my first thread here and I think I should just give a quick introduction:

Recently, a friend of mine has found a flintlock rifle at his Dads house, he had no idea what it was, so he asked me if I could help him, since he knew I´m kinda interested in this sort of stuff. And I could and couldn´t at the same time.

So I found out that it looks like a 3rd Model Brown Bess, but while i was looking at the piece and comparing it to numerous ones online, I noticed fairly quickly, that his seemed to be in very good condition. Oddly good condition for its alledged age.

Which is why I am asking you: Is this rifle an actual piece from the period?
It doesn´t seem to have any markings other than the "TOWER" and "crown over GR" on the lock plate, also the stock just looks very new, as well as the brass and, quite frankly, everything on it. Plus, the side plate is flat, something I have not found in antiques. But also I´ve noticed there is a good bit of variation in these, so I am unsure.
While it has the odd ding an scratch on the stock, it just apperas to me as a replcia rifle, that someone hasn´t really taken great care of.
But I´d happily be prooven wrong.

Can anybody tell whether this is a replica or an original?
And what´s giving it away?
Thank you so much for your help!

Max

 

[Grenadier1758]

Are there any proof marks on the barrel?

 

[dd832]

Looks like a restock at least. The wood doesn't show any age for a 200 year old musket. There's no wood apron around the breechplug tang. Like you said the lock side plate is flat & I can't find any photos with that feature. The buttplate looks like is was sanded down, it should show dents and gravel marks. There is no iron staining of the wood around the barrel pins.

Here's a couple of photos for comparison-





Hope this helps. Mike

 

[TFoley]

It's a musket, not a rifle.

 

[cositrike]

Hello everyone,

This is my first thread here and I think I should just give a quick introduction:

Recently, a friend of mine has found a flintlock rifle at his Dads house, he had no idea what it was, so he asked me if I could help him, since he knew I´m kinda interested in this sort of stuff. And I could and couldn´t at the same time.

So I found out that it looks like a 3rd Model Brown Bess, but while i was looking at the piece and comparing it to numerous ones online, I noticed fairly quickly, that his seemed to be in very good condition. Oddly good condition for its alledged age.

Which is why I am asking you: Is this rifle an actual piece from the period?
It doesn´t seem to have any markings other than the "TOWER" and "crown over GR" on the lock plate, also the stock just looks very new, as well as the brass and, quite frankly, everything on it. Plus, the side plate is flat, something I have not found in antiques. But also I´ve noticed there is a good bit of variation in these, so I am unsure.
While it has the odd ding an scratch on the stock, it just apperas to me as a replcia rifle, that someone hasn´t really taken great care of.
But I´d happily be prooven wrong.

Can anybody tell whether this is a replica or an original?
And what´s giving it away?
Thank you so much for your help!

Max

Looks to me much like the Indian built Bess copies. So modern, not original

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The lock also does not appear to have any crown ownership stamps. This is somebody's restocked version of an India pattern. The lock panels are oddly shaped compared with originals, the finish looks an in the wood oil rather than the usual heavy varnish. If original, it would have proof marks on the barrel and other inspection marks. The muzzle cap is incorrect and looks like it comes from a new land pattern musket, Baker rifle, or later percussion musket or rifle. The flat side plate is wrong as you previously mentioned. I am tempted to suggest it is a fairly modern gun using modern cast parts.

dave

 

[TFoley]

Hi,
The lock also does not appear to have any crown ownership stamps. This is somebody's restocked version of an India pattern. The lock panels are oddly shaped compared with originals, the finish looks an in the wood oil rather than the usual heavy varnish. If original, it would have proof marks on the barrel and other inspection marks. The muzzle cap is incorrect and looks like it comes from a new land pattern musket, Baker rifle, or later percussion musket or rifle. The flat side plate is wrong as you previously mentioned. I am tempted to suggest it is a fairly modern gun using modern cast parts.

dave

You can actually see the casting flaws in the trigger guard bow in image #5, as well as the crude file marks..

 

[Cavalier]

Are there any proof marks on the barrel?

I don´t have the musket (not a rifle, wasn´t thinking) here. But telling from the pictures I would say no, I´ve attached an other one from showing it from above.

Looks like a restock at least. The wood doesn't show any age for a 200 year old musket. There's no wood apron around the breechplug tang. Like you said the lock side plate is flat & I can't find any photos with that feature. The buttplate looks like is was sanded down, it should show dents and gravel marks. There is no iron staining of the wood around the barrel pins.

Thanks Mike. I think I have seen examples without wood aprons on ima.com or somewhere else. Is that possible? You certainly are right about the stains.

Hi,
The lock also does not appear to have any crown ownership stamps. This is somebody's restocked version of an India pattern. The lock panels are oddly shaped compared with originals, the finish looks an in the wood oil rather than the usual heavy varnish. If original, it would have proof marks on the barrel and other inspection marks. The muzzle cap is incorrect and looks like it comes from a new land pattern musket, Baker rifle, or later percussion musket or rifle. The flat side plate is wrong as you previously mentioned. I am tempted to suggest it is a fairly modern gun using modern cast parts.

dave

Thank you Dave, this helps a lot. So adding up all the comments I can assume there isn´t really an original part on this gun...

You can actually see the casting flaws in the trigger guard bow in image #5, as well as the crude file marks..

Are you talking about the blue circled ones or the red ones? The latter look like it was held in a vice, wouldn´t you say? (See 2nd picture)

Thank you everyone for your help!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I can assume there isn´t really an original part on this gun...

Indeed
A few of the mistakes the person "antiquing" the musket missed... as mentioned not all of the stamps are there, and the engraving is wrong, not to mention the point of the wood at the back of the lock mortise, is also not correct. The below is on the photo of an original but on the OP's musket is missing...




This point is way too pronounced and sharp on the OP's musket....


You need the barrel stamps too as they appear on this the original musket....

Another post mentioned the nose cap, and if you look at the hole for the retaining pin for the entry thimble, there is a circle indented into the wood around that hole. That happens when a person with a power drill or power drill press applies pressure and the modern drill bit cuts through the barrel wedge, and the power tool operator doesn't catch the power drill from moving too far forward so the chuck holding the bit makes that round mark.


LD

 

[TFoley]

Are you talking about the blue circled ones or the red ones? The latter look like it was held in a vice, wouldn´t you say? (See 2nd picture)Thank you everyone for your help!

Yes, this is the image with what look to me like flaws in the casting. And file marks on the rear inside and also on the trigger which ought to be smooth all over, especially on the face where the trigger finger goes. My S*i*e*s are all like that.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
It looks to have a hook breech (standing breech) not something found on original muskets.

dave

 

[Cavalier]

Thanks Dave this is what I came here for. Very cool to puzzle it all together, I don't mind it not being the real deal, this is just as exciting. (My friend might, though)

Yes, this is the image with what look to me like flaws in the casting. And file marks on the rear inside and also on the trigger which ought to be smooth all over, especially on the face where the trigger finger goes. My S*i*e*s are all like that.

Alright okay, I see. Your... what?

Hi,
It looks to have a hook breech (standing breech) not something found on original muskets.

dave

Interesting... Would have never been able to tell.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[satwel]

The muzzle cap on the OP musket is from a P53 Enfield rifle musket. That is not the style of muzzle cap found on period India Pattern Besses. The OP musket is a repro. Probably made in India.