Need help identifying this smoothbore

[Sergissimo]

Posted in the wrong forum originally. Re-posting here. Thank you!

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Good day!

Being in the very beginning of my black powder journey I thought it would be a good idea to buy an old inexpensive gun I can take apart to learn more about the subject. And hopefully restore it down the road or use as parts gun for my own project.

Well, I bought this “wall hanger” and now I’m curious if it’s a real old thing, or reproduction of some sort or maybe a mix of the both which may very well be the case. And as you may have guessed I do not possess enough knowledge to determine this myself

From what I can see the gun is not operational in its current state. The hammer is half broken I think, the nipple is rusted, the stock has cracks etc. The lock is in great shape actually and has “W Chance and Son” engraved on it, but I don’t know if it’s for real or not.

The other big question is about barrel. It has no markings on it except for “50” which I assume may be a caliber and another mark that resembles “1” unless it’s just how multiple scratches came together. Also, the barrel and some other parts are painted I think with something that looks like a coat on my “bronze” door handle Not sure what it is but very curious to know and whether it needs to be removed.

I would also appreciate any suggestions on restoration of the barrel and percussion nipple. It looks like it can be unscrewed from the barrel and replaced. Someone did it already at some point based on marks I can see, but I’m not sure if that’s the right thing to do etc.

Anyways. Too many questions already. Thanks everyone for your input!

 

[poker]

It looks like a decent condition 50 caliber. Except for the broken wrist which could be repaired. I am not seeing anything that points to a parts special. If you look on the underside of the barrels breech end you should find proof marks to identify the origin and maybe age.

 

[Sergissimo]

If you look on the underside of the barrels breech end you should find proof marks to identify the origin and maybe age.

Well that’s the actual problem, because there are no marks on the barrel except those I already mentioned. I’m attaching one more pic.

I am not seeing anything that points to a parts special.

You haven’t seen the hammer and percussion part yet Pictures attached.

 

[Thagomizer]

Everything looks original to me.

 

[Sergissimo]

Everything looks original to me.

What throws me off here is "London" mention on the lock plate. I thought guns made in England would have some identification marks on barrels. Which doesn't seem to be the case here.

 

[JohnnieT]

What looks like an H is actually a highly stylized W for William Chance and Son of London. The company was very active in the mid-nineteenth century and did significant trade in North America. Below is a closed auction listing for a very similar model from the same maker.

“William Chance, a merchant of Birmingham England 1777-1780 became Chance & Homer, then William Chance & Sons 1812-1821. He sold guns marked London. William Chance the 2nd, son of William, 2 Coleman Street Bldgs. London 1829-1842 became William Chance Son & Co. 1842-1856; then William Chance & Co. 1858.”

https://bid.sofedesignauctions.com/...autiful-engraved-lock-and-mounts-circa-19th-c

 

[Sergissimo]

What looks like an H is actually a highly stylized W for William Chance and Son of London.

You are absolutely right, this is stylized "W". The "problem" I see here, and mind you I'm not an expert by any means, the way the name is engraved. Can you see those two parallel lines on top with one going right through the name? Would you ever do this if you were a respected gun maker? I wouldn't. Also, some elements inside the lock look "too new" to me, I could be wrong though.

And I could be fixated on the barrel, but the link you attached, there are some stamps on the barrel I think. Yet mine has none that would help in identification.

 

[rich pierce]

The 50 could mean about 50 balls to the pound, not .50 caliber. If so it’s about a .45 or .46 caliber.

 

[JohnnieT]

Those marks on the engraving do look odd, but I’m no expert on the techniques and styles of the period. My sense of it, based solely on instinct, is that you have a genuine rifle. Those internal parts may have been replaced at some point, but I think if they were it was done for the sake of repair or attempted restoration.

 

[poker]

Your barrel appears like its possibly been sanded to remove rust. If so, perhaps they sanded the proofs right off. Often belgian makers would semi-copy british names onto their guns, but they used proof marks from belgium.

 

[Sergissimo]

The 50 could mean about 50 balls to the pound, not .50 caliber. If so it’s about a .45 or .46 caliber.

This is good to know. Thank you!

 

[Sergissimo]

Your barrel appears like its possibly been sanded to remove rust. If so, perhaps they sanded the proofs right off. Often belgian makers would semi-copy british names onto their guns, but they used proof marks from belgium.

You are likely right, because the barrel is "painted" with some sort of shiny substance I described earlier, and there are noticeable scratches underneath this coat.

 

[Sergissimo]

Those internal parts may have been replaced at some point, but I think if they were it was done for the sake of repair or attempted restoration.

I would agree with you here. The mechanism works very well. Like new

 

[TFoley]

The 50 could mean about 50 balls to the pound, not .50 caliber. If so it’s about a .45 or .46 caliber.

IOW, 50 bore, the usual way of determining calibre - 50 round balls to the pound. So 50 bore is .453".

 

[jimhallam]

You might like to try filling the "markings" with white wax so that they show up. Furniture restorers use sticks in different colours, and Trophy engravers use it to show up the information.
I used to use an American brand called "Lacquer-Stik" - part # 51120 -- (LA-CO Industries Inc, 1-847-958-7000 markal.com?) but can't easily get it sent over now.

The "50" is certainly for 50 BORE -- not "calibre" (oops! sorry, UK English) and many companies had a "London" address -- a bit like a Post Office Box -- to give added perceived value and hike the prices. _

 

[Sergissimo]

You might like to try filling the "markings" with white wax so that they show up. Furniture restorers use sticks in different colours, and Trophy engravers use it to show up the information.

Thanks for another great suggestion.

The "50" is certainly for 50 BORE -- not "calibre" (oops! sorry, UK English)

Haha. There are also "colours" in your post

 

[smoothshooter]

What looks like an H is actually a highly stylized W for William Chance and Son of London. The company was very active in the mid-nineteenth century and did significant trade in North America. Below is a closed auction listing for a very similar model from the same maker.

“William Chance, a merchant of Birmingham England 1777-1780 became Chance & Homer, then William Chance & Sons 1812-1821. He sold guns marked London. William Chance the 2nd, son of William, 2 Coleman Street Bldgs. London 1829-1842 became William Chance Son & Co. 1842-1856; then William Chance & Co. 1858.”

https://bid.sofedesignauctions.com/...autiful-engraved-lock-and-mounts-circa-19th-c

I am an amateur calligrapher, and the initial in question is a stylized “ W “.

 

[SDSmlf]

Some have suggested using wax to highlight and bring out stamps and engraving, but I have found using a piece of old chalkboard chalk like they used when many of us were in school works well. When rubbed over the metal surface, the chalk helps make any markings much more visible, and it’s easily cleaned up leaving no evidence anything was done. As an example, both the following photographs were taken at about the same distance with the same camera and lighting (handheld, so slight difference). Difference is that before the second photograph chalk was rubbed into the engraving. Believe you can see that one is significantly easier to read than the other. No other adjustments or funny business between the two photographs.

 

[smoothshooter]

What throws me off here is "London" mention on the lock plate. I thought guns made in England would have some identification marks on barrels. Which doesn't seem to be the case here.

Locks and barrels were often made in different places.
They could have been made decades apart as well.

 

[smoothshooter]

What is the thing on the underside of the butt stock where a rear sling attachment would normally be?