Need help with ID German smoothbore flintlock reproduction

[bpflint2007]

Hey everyone. Picked this up at a local show over the weekend, mostly as a project. I can’t however figure anything out about this online and wanted to see what anyone has to say about this.

The only marking says “Germany” on the lock and the lock plate itself seems to be made of aluminum. Half cock is great, trigger pull is great, however my 5/8” Tom Fuller flints don’t create spark but they do drag along the frizzen. This is my first flintlock but I have a Pedersoli Kentucky flinter rifle on the way and hopefully that will be here before the weekend is over.

I know this is a repro and probably worth less than I paid. Not trying to turn a potential sow’s ear into a silk purse but I definitely would like to shoot this if it is safe to do so. I can’t remove the barrel as the barrel band has a blind pin holding it in so I can’t verify if the breech is welded like some Japanese Tower pistols were or if it is threaded. If it is safe to shoot, would I get better spark with a larger flint or should I harden/temper the frizzen? Also note in the pics, the frizzen was not closed all the way and it actually seals fffg in the pan just fine.

I imagine after I remove the blind pin it will be fitted by me with a proper pin that facilitates easier disassembly. Anyway, any comments, questions, concerns welcome! Now here’s the pics.

 

[bpflint2007]

And a size comparison to show how truly massive this thing is next to a 36 cal Pietta with a 10” barrel if I remember correctly.

 

[desi23]

If it's German and intended to be a functional firearm it should have proof marks. If there are no proof marks visible I would be suspicious about it being intended as a non-functional display piece. Such non-guns are not uncommon in many countries with restrictive gun laws, sometimes sod as stage and/or decoration pieces for the wall. That blind pin would have to come out to see if there are any proofs on the underside of the barrel before I would feel comfortable with attempting to shoot it............. If no proof marks can be found but it appeared to have a proper breechplug I would have to try proof testing the barrel myself to see if it were even safe to shoot.

 

[TreeMan]

That frizzen has the appearance of being pot metal or if it is steel it hasn’t been polished or hardened for firing. It looks like it is a casting and put on the gun. A proper new frizzen should be polished bright, shiny and smooth.

 

[2 shots]

possibly a hy hunter import ?? he imported many repro guns from germany.

 

[BEP]

I own one. Hy Hunter imported these in the early 60's ( and probably other times as well) because I bought one in 1963. It was advertised as .79 caliber. Hard to tell as the final inch or so is cut into a funnel; easy to do because the barrel is so thick. Mine also has no proof marks - maybe not required by law back then? Just a guess. The lock is a copy of a musket lock but the mainspring was changed to a shortened "V" and didn't have a lot of oomph. The only way I could get it to spark as received was with small (1/2 X 3/4) pistol flints that could concentrate the force of that weak mainspring into a smaller area. Eventually I changed the mainspring out with a spring intended for a 3rd model Bess. I also re-casehardened the frizzen. Now it sparks just fine and has for many years. I also turned a flared ramrod tip from the base of a .308 brass case; that ramrod is only a quarter inch. I couldn't go any bigger on that brass tip because there isn't room between the ramrod and the barrel for a larger one.

It weighs in at 4 pounds 5 ounces and is about 17 1/2 inches long. Not the sort you'd slip in your belt to carry. You'd need a sling, or perhaps wheels. But, like all muzzleloaders it's fun to shoot; I use 50 grains of 3f and a heavily patched .715 ball. Pretty sure I paid about $20.00 for it back in the day.

Forum member Orin sold one of these recently. It's on about page 4 of the "Firearms for sale/Trade/Wanted" forum. He answered quite a few questions plus it could give one an idea of the pistol's worth.

 

[bpflint2007]

That frizzen has the appearance of being pot metal or if it is steel it hasn’t been polished or hardened for firing. It looks like it is a casting and put on the gun. A proper new frizzen should be polished bright, shiny and smooth.

This is a noob question but I have the tools available to me to polish and harden this frizzen. If it truly is steel I shouldn’t have a problem fixing this.

The breech plug appears to be threaded into the gun instead of welded now I removed the barrel. To my eye the frizzen is the only “issue” that keeps the gun from firing. Perhaps this weekend I’ll do that work to it.

 

[bpflint2007]

I own one. Hy Hunter imported these in the early 60's ( and probably other times as well) because I bought one in 1963. It was advertised as .79 caliber. Hard to tell as the final inch or so is cut into a funnel; easy to do because the barrel is so thick. Mine also has no proof marks - maybe not required by law back then? Just a guess. The lock is a copy of a musket lock but the mainspring was changed to a shortened "V" and didn't have a lot of oomph. The only way I could get it to spark as received was with small (1/2 X 3/4) pistol flints that could concentrate the force of that weak mainspring into a smaller area. Eventually I changed the mainspring out with a spring intended for a 3rd model Bess. I also re-casehardened the frizzen. Now it sparks just fine and has for many years. I also turned a flared ramrod tip from the base of a .308 brass case; that ramrod is only a quarter inch. I couldn't go any bigger on that brass tip because there isn't room between the ramrod and the barrel for a larger one.

It weighs in at 4 pounds 5 ounces and is about 17 1/2 inches long. Not the sort you'd slip in your belt to carry. You'd need a sling, or perhaps wheels. But, like all muzzleloaders it's fun to shoot; I use 50 grains of 3f and a heavily patched .715 ball. Pretty sure I paid about $20.00 for it back in the day.

Forum member Orin sold one of these recently. It's on about page 4 of the "Firearms for sale/Trade/Wanted" forum. He answered quite a few questions plus it could give one an idea of the pistol's worth.

Interesting info for the flint size, I’ve dry fired this (blocking the cock from striking the frizzen) and it seems to go forward with authority. I paid $325 for this and realize it’s not worth it for most people but for a big bore flint lock that isn’t a custom or a Pedersoli, it fits the bill. I think it’s worth making it work as an interesting project though.
Thanks for the tips on the ramrod. I noticed it’s pretty slim and had thought about the same method to make it last a little longer in use.

 

[sheriff john]

Find some proof marks on the barrel before firing. The barrel thickness sure doesn;t look sufficient to me. The statement that the frizzen doesn't spark is odd. Anyway ..it's pretty.

 

[bpflint2007]

Find some proof marks on the barrel before firing. The barrel thickness sure doesn;t look sufficient to me. The statement that the frizzen doesn't spark is odd. Anyway ..it's pretty.

The first half of the barrel kind of has a funnel in it, it thickens up significantly about a 1/4” in and only gets thicker from there. I’ll try and get a picture of that later when I see it.

 

[bpflint2007]

Actually, here’s one that shows it perfectly.

 

[hawkeye2]

I have one and haven't fired it in years but it sure was fun. I never had a failure to fire and the flint in it is 1" X 1". Just tap the pin in till you can slide the band off and drill for another pin or a screw in from the left. The pin fell out of mine, suspect it was a brass nail, and the band is held on by friction but it's solid. Check your frizzen with a magnet, it should be steel. Yes they were meant to shoot and no they don't have proof marks. Mine was imported by Hi Hunter but others imported them too as I remember and they may go back to the 50s. They were available in the early 60s. The barrel is quite thick but it's coned for almost an inch so it looks thin at the muzzle which measures about 1" ID. I used to patch one of my Brown Bess balls over 100 grains of 2f. The flame and smoke was very impressive and the recoil really was fairly mild but that ball sure did smack a steel plate.

The welded breech plug rumor started with the Japanese made $30 Tower pistols. Really they had a screwed in plug flush with the back of the barrel and the tang was welded on.

 

[bpflint2007]

I have one and haven't fired it in years but it sure was fun. I never had a failure to fire and the flint in it is 1" X 1". Just tap the pin in till you can slide the band off and drill for another pin or a screw in from the left. The pin fell out of mine, suspect it was a brass nail, and the band is held on by friction but it's solid. Check your frizzen with a magnet, it should be steel. Yes they were meant to shoot and no they don't have proof marks. Mine was imported by Hi Hunter but others imported them too as I remember and they may go back to the 50s. They were available in the early 60s. The barrel is quite thick but it's coned for almost an inch so it looks thin at the muzzle which measures about 1" ID. I used to patch one of my Brown Bess balls over 100 grains of 2f. The flame and smoke was very impressive and the recoil really was fairly mild but that ball sure did smack a steel plate.

The welded breech plug rumor started with the Japanese made $30 Tower pistols. Really they had a screwed in plug flush with the back of the barrel and the tang was welded on.

Good to know that was a myth about those pistols and good info on the flint! There’s a place about an hour away that has many flints in stock so I would be money ahead to get a flint that fits properly and see if it sparks.

 

[sheriff john]

There you go ! This forum is invaluable. Question asked, Question answered. Have fun!!

 

[bpflint2007]

There you go ! This forum is invaluable. Question asked, Question answered. Have fun!!

This is a great place to learn. Here’s hoping that in a week or two I have this guy breathing fire again. This is my seventh BP gun in the collection currently and probably have had 3-4 Pietta revolvers come and go in the past. Nothing like going to the range with friends and having enough for everyone to experience it