New Double flintlock fowler

[Christiaan]

Got it in my hands. They did make three changes I suggested from the first pics. (1) The cocks was changed from a Military style to an English sporting style, (2) the Lock plate was slightly changed to English sporting style and (3) the trigger gaurd was changed to have a straight grip. I like the unfinished kit format. The wood is thick and have potential to form into a slimmer version. 29 inch barrels, 14 inch length of pull, 7lbs weight. As I've said, I'm a rookie but it feels very well balanced to me. Can't wait to test it.

Compared to this

All suggestions will be appreciated as I have to give the manufacturer feedback on Monday.

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Got it in my hands. They did make three changes I suggested from the first pics. (1) The cocks was changed from a Military style to an English sporting style, (2) the Lock plate was slightly changed to English sporting style and (3) the trigger gaurd was changed to have a straight grip. I like the unfinished kit format. The wood is thick and have potential to form into a slimmer version. 29 inch barrels, 14 inch length of pull, 7lbs weight. As I've said, I'm a rookie but it feels very well balanced to me. Can't wait to test it.

Looking better all the time, like the improvements so far, the 7 lbs wt. is nice, no doubt it can be gotten down to 6.5. Will be very interesting to see your report on the testing as to the internal workings, lock time, priming ignition, trigger pulls, fit etc, pattern and anything else you can enlighten us on. If all proves out, I have no doubt one of them will be headed this way for me.

Sure Mike Brooks and others will have some thoughtful improvement insights also.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Can any thing be done about that buttplate? Its so flat, I think I am looking at a trade rifle, instead of a DB shotgun. It needs a bit of curve to it, but not a crescent. It should be designed to fit in the pocket of your shoulder( when your arm is raised with the elbow out from your shoulder.) There should be some downpitch, since most men are full through the chest. No sense selling a gun that has a toe that digs into the shooter's pectoral muscles needlessly, so he has to spend money to have the stock changed.

I am also concerned that the double throated cock is not striking the frizzen at a proper angle to scrape steel from the face, rather than gouge it, and shatter flints in the process. The angle of the lower jaw of the cock to the face of the frizzen when the flint strikes the frizzen should be 60 degrees, where the bottom axis is the triangle lies along the bottom jaw, and the upper axis is a line from the top of the face of the frizzen to the point of impact with the edge of the flint. The POI is the center point for a protractor to measure the angle. The POI should be between 60 and 75 percent of the distance from the bottom of the frizzen's face, to the top of the frizzen. That permits the frizzen to be popped open as the cock scrapes steel from the face and throws it into the pan as the frizzen rises and backs out of the path of the sparks. If there is any evidence of skipping of the flint on the face of the frizzen, something is not fitted correctly. You should see a long scrape on the frizzen from the POI to just above the bottom of the frizzen where the frizzen pops back away from the flint to make room for the sparks to be thrown into the pan. With a new flint, the edge of the flint should be pointing into the center of the pan or just forward of it. If the edge is pointing beyond the front of the pan, when the cock is all the way forward and at rest, either a shorter flint has to be used, or an adjustment in the angle of the cock to turn the cock downward a bit is needed.

Adjusting a double throated military style cock is much more difficult to do than with a gooseneck shaped cock. You might want to keep that in mind before settling on a design. I would want a very good reason to be using the double throated cock these days. The steels used in casting lock parts is so much superior to the iron that was used to make parts for the original guns, that there is not reason not to use these steels and rely on their strength to produce a reliable cock that will not bend or break under normal use.

 

[Matabele]

Hi Christiaan, just my $0.02 but I must say I prefer the style of the original cocks, looks more elegant to me...the replacements seem "blocky" and would seem out of place once you had slimmed the stock down. Also I prefer the metal finger grip piece, it adds a dimension not seen on the other doubles like the Pedersoli Kodiak, and was seen on original English sporting rifles and shotguns.

I also agree with Paul that a slight curve to the buttplate would be great...and a cheek piece would be welcome!!

Ok so more like $0.04 :grin: Either way its a great rifle Christiaan and im busy saving as we speak :thumbsup:

 

[Bearbait2]

Mr. Christiaan,
No matter what you do, you are NOT going to please everyone. For instance, I prefer the look of the original cock ("military") but like the look of the new smaller trigger guard furniture. Would also prefer a shorter length of pull; 13 1/2" or so.
Regardless, am about 95% certain we will be purchasing one; once they become available.
Thank you for all your effort!
Best Wishes

 

[Christiaan]

Thanks Paul,great input and suggestions.
I confess I do not know enough and don't understand evertything you said but I'll read it again till I understand. But I have a question.

When I mount the gun it seems to slip off my shoulder. Why is that? Is it just the highly polished butt plate or is there a design change that have to be made? Must say I haven't shot it, yet.

I take note of the preference for a Swan neck style.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Winston Churchill once said that " America and Great Britain were two countries divided by the same language". I suspect the same should be said about America and S. Africa. I apologize if anything I wrote is not clear. What you call a swan neck, we call and goose neck. Same thing.

The butt slides off because it is too flat. It needs a slight curve to it to stay on your shoulder.

The pocket I spoke about is formed by raising your arm up with the elbow out away from your shoulder, as if you want to poke someone with your elbow standing next to you, when you are seated. A pocket, or " cup " is formed near the collar bone, close to the neck. That is the proper place to put the butt of a shotgun.

Once the stock is in that pocket, you can lower the elbow to remove that strain from your arm. And, once you have learned how to mount the gun to the pocket, you can leave the arm down the whole time, as you know where the proper position on your shoulder is for the shotgun, and you know to mount the gun to your face, and not lower your face to the gun.

 

[Christiaan]

Winston Churchill once said that " America and Great Britain were two countries divided by the same language". I suspect the same should be said about America and S. Africa.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :rotf:
Yes, and English is not my first language. I am Afrikaans Speaking. I sit with a dictionary next to my PC and still struggle with the spelling. But my English is better than the Indian's English. Imagine trying to explain to them what should be done with my broken English. I have to draw pictures and fax it sometimes.

I post so slow, cause I write so slow. :rotf:

 

[JiminTexas]

I like the changes to the triggers, trigger guard and lock plate a lot, but I have to agree that the hammers on the original look better to my eye. I hope to be able to get this in the white or as a kit, so the butplate curvature would be an easy fix for me. At cylander and cylander choking, I can't wait to show up at the local skeet club with this one.

 

[taylorh]

I have been following your discussion and think the following...

I like the english stock and butt-plate
I like the original cocks the best, more delicate looking
I like the new trigger guard
I prefer no choke or tubes on a bp shotgun

Keep going,
Taylor in Texas
:thumbsup:

 

[ffffg]

The steel schnabble youv cut off would have been a big help in holding on to the gun so it doesnt slide.. The main points in fit of a shot gun is rise, pull, cast off, and pitch.. I also consider the angle of the comb, with along with the wrong pitch can cause face slap... Pitch is the angle of the buttplate to barrel, and i suspect it is the problem along with needing a good engraving one the face of the buttplate.. If its sliding up or down the pitch needs to be changed.. I used to really be into that and cant remember what it should be... put the gun butt flat on the ground, slide it up to a corner and measure the distance away from the wall at the top of the barrel.. If my old brain serves me it should be about 1 1/2 inches for that lenght barrel. Im guessing your pitch will put a 30 inch barrel end about 3 inches from the wall and will probably cause problems with the butt plate sliding up upon firing... as i said i dont deal with this every day as a shotgun fitter would, and that would be the best place to go and find out exatly what needs to be done.. dave..

 

[Hawkeye]

Christiaan,

I also like the overall look and idea for this, however I don't care for the double throated cock. I my somewhat biased opinion the swan neck cock is much more suited to a sporting arm than the large heavy military looking double throated cock.

Hawkeye

 

[Mike Brooks]

If I get a chance I'll post pictures of an actual british flint double. This one from india isn't anywhere close....as usual. :barf:

 

[Christiaan]

Mike,
Thanks we are looking forward to your input and suggestions. I know you are one guy that has the building experience that can guide us on the right track.
Christiaan

 

[Bubba45]

The swan necked locks look out of proportion,and should be a bit larger but to me definately look more ornate than the military look of the dual throat locks.

 

[Parzifal]

I must agree that the origional queen anne style hammers are more pleasing to my eye!

In fact the origional triggerguard is nice aswell.

Thinking this weekend, I was thinking that if it could be in the white with tons of extra material and say have extra length on the butt , so it can be adjusted to the shooters arm length, and engraved etc...

Your doing a great job
Fine looking gun!

Rob

 

[Christiaan]

Mike, here is a pic that my friend MC send me of an original in SA. What do you think?

 

[Christiaan]

Thanks to Joel Vicchione for sending me some superb pictures of doubles. :thumbsup: I'll forward them to India. I really appreciate all the help and assistance. Teaming up with us Heathens on the Dark continent. :rotf: You guys are GREAT!!!! :bow: I applaude you :applause: God Bless America and its wonderful people!!

Here is another original example. This is the first pics I send to India. I think this is where to lock shape came from.

 

[Titus]

Mike, here is a pic that my friend MC send me of an original in SA. What do you think?

Now we are talking. Show me a Levick or a Durrs Egg..... :grin:

 

I can't tell by the pix but are they going to taper the lock panels toward the butt? They really need to do that if they want a English shotgun to feel right and look right. It also looks like it is a bit to thick in the wrist vertically at the tang bolt. It needs to have a cleaner sweep to the top line of the wrist.
Thanks for your efforts,
Cooner