New Goex powder vs. the Old Goex powder

[Flint62Smoothie]

A friend sent me this and has asked if anyone else has run into this? Note, yes he loads by volume, but tunes his fire locks to a specific chaerge 'by weight, when he does his load development for the utmost in accuracy. Don't flame me ... am just curious what other have experienced. I advised that he do some chronograph testing, as otherwise to me there's no issue if the velocity is consistent.

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"Shot some of the new Goex 2F today and noticed an important difference between the old Goex and new Goex. The new Goex 2F has discernable different grain shape, quite round in appearance compared to the old formula. It also has significantly LESS weight per volume measure than the old, more than 10%. I believe this is due to the round grains having more air space between grains and not packing as densely as the old Goex.

This means if you have your measure set up for a known charge of old 2F Goex, for say 80 grains, the new 2F Goex filling that measure will weigh only about 70 grains. So when you start using the new Goex you will need to weigh your first few charges to confirm what your volume measure is actually throwing and adjust your volume measures accordingly. Am presuming this same holds true for 1F and 2F.
Note that the weighed charges of new Goex shoot with similar effect as charges of similar weight of the old Goex. Also, have always found that the old Goex and Schuetzen powders were nearly identical in volume and weight measurements, so if you convert from Schuetzen to the new Goex, the above problem applies.

Anyway.......just so everyone knows! Will be interested in hearing what experiences everyone has with the new powder!"

 

[Moasf]

A friend sent me this and has asked if anyone else has run into this? Note, yes he loads by volume, but tunes his fire locks to a specific chaerge 'by weight, when he does his load development for the utmost in accuracy. Don't flame me ... am just curious what other have experienced. I advised that he do some chronograph testing, as otherwise to me there's no issue if the velocity is consistent.

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"Shot some of the new Goex 2F today and noticed an important difference between the old Goex and new Goex. The new Goex 2F has discernable different grain shape, quite round in appearance compared to the old formula. It also has significantly LESS weight per volume measure than the old, more than 10%. I believe this is due to the round grains having more air space between grains and not packing as densely as the old Goex.

This means if you have your measure set up for a known charge of old 2F Goex, for say 80 grains, the new 2F Goex filling that measure will weigh only about 70 grains. So when you start using the new Goex you will need to weigh your first few charges to confirm what your volume measure is actually throwing and adjust your volume measures accordingly. Am presuming this same holds true for 1F and 2F.
Note that the weighed charges of new Goex shoot with similar effect as charges of similar weight of the old Goex. Also, have always found that the old Goex and Schuetzen powders were nearly identical in volume and weight measurements, so if you convert from Schuetzen to the new Goex, the above problem applies.

Anyway.......just so everyone knows! Will be interested in hearing what experiences everyone has with the new powder!"

I am just glad its back.

 

[Sentry44]

OP,

Sorry, I can't answer as to old vs new Goex. What I can say is I have Swiss, Scheutzen and NEW Goex in 2f and 3f...and 4f in Swiss and new Goex.

What I have noted is the new Goex sits in the middle of the other two in terms of velocity per same volume (not weight) charge of 2f or 3f. That's from both a Percussion Renegade and a Flintlock Renegade.

** Note, I dont have a chrony. I'm basing that assertion purely based on where they hit. The same charge of all three, with same point of aim, puts Swiss on average higher than Goex, and Goex higher that Scheutzen, at both 50 and 100 yards. I know this hardly qualifies me as a ballistician. *lol*

Priming the flintlock with 4f Swiss vs 4f new Goex seems indiscernably similar. I have no scientific way of measuring the lock times, but just reckoning it seems difficult to tell the difference.

Again, Im not really contributing to your query about 'new vs old'...but at a minimum I can report that at least in my rifles, new Goex works great.

Sentry44

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Chronograph testing done!

FYI - Pretty interesting chronograph results of testing the NEW Goex black powder versus the ‘old’ Goex Company formulation.

It does load 'volume for volume' like the old powder, or as any BP powdah should, However it weighs 9% less in physical weight, in case one loads by physical grain weight, like some BP cartridge & NSSA competition shooters do.

The new 2F was close in velocity to the old powder, but there were wild velocity swings and higher extreme spread (999 to 1160), whereas the extreme spread for the old Goex was only 37.

New Goex 2Fg had 1098 FPS vs 1104 FPS of the old in a 33.3” barreled 62-cal Baker (80grn load by volume)

New Goex 3Fg had 1491 FPS vs 1603 FPS of old in a 42” barreled 45-cal SMR (50grn load by volume). But get this, even the report at the shot was MUCH LESS of a 'bang'! It too had a ~3X higher extreme spread. It was also light gray in color, looks more like Pyrodex, and wasn’t black at all … not that that means anything, LOL!

All powdahs tested in flintlocks, w/ the 1st few fouling shots thrown out.

I remain VERY impressed with the chronograph velocity of a 50grn 3Fg load in a 45!

 

[wiscoaster]

Noted in a GOEX ad in "Muzzle Blasts" the phrase "relaunch" and wondered what was meant by that. Words chosen in publishing are always significant and important and are always used to either convey OR to obscure real meaning.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Noted in a GOEX ad in "Muzzle Blasts" the phrase "relaunch" and wondered what was meant by that ...

My bet would be as an intentional 'double entrende', as the Goex Company was sold off by Hornady and it was purchased by the Estes Company who brought back the Goex name as the only US black powder manufacturer. And, given that Estes makes model rocket motors to launch them into the air ... hence the double-use of the word 'launch'?

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

meet the new boss....same as the old boss....

 

[wiscoaster]

.... And, given that Estes makes model rocket motors to launch them into the air ... hence the double-use of the word 'launch'?

Hmmmm ... you may be on to something there. Reminds me of when I was a kid and built model rockets using Estes rocket motors. Circa 1963/4 or thereabouts:

10 ... 9 ... 8 ... 7 ... 6 ... 5 ... 4 ... 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... WOOOOOOSH!!

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Dont read into it Folks...it,s still ABC

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

More new vs. old Goex testing:

These results as measured by weight appear to be better than the results that two others got above when they measured/loaded by volume. It also seems to indicate that perhaps the more powder, the better the performance. That might also be why the rifle tested below cleaned up fine, hypothesizing that the higher charge burns or combusts more efficiently.

Yes, the data sets are small, however, I'm running them through my specialized statistics program which includes a module for 'short run’ SPC. That concept actually has some ways to validate data, i.e., to ‘normalize’ it (a statistical term), for such small data sets when combined in the aggregate.

More testing to be done!

 

[Appowner]

My bet would be as an intentional 'double entrende', as the Goex Company was sold off by Hornady and it was purchased by the Estes Company who brought back the Goex name as the only US black powder manufacturer. And, given that Estes makes model rocket motors to launch them into the air ... hence the double-use of the word 'launch'?

Estes, as in the model rocket company? They use BP for fuel in their rocket motors.

 

[Omahkapi'si]

If it goes boom and there’s a big hole in what I shot, I’m happy.

 

[DillyJamba]

Anyone else have feedback on the new powder? Considering putting in an order on a case and weighing out if it's worth splurging for Swiss again (Didn't seem to make a noticeable difference for me previously) seems like a huge velocity spread on some that testing!

 

[PathfinderNC]

Thanks Flint62Smoothie. You put a lot of thought and time into this study. It would be interesting to know if Este has any thoughts or comments about these changes.

 

[Sidney Smith]

Noted in a GOEX ad in "Muzzle Blasts" the phrase "relaunch" and wondered what was meant by that. Words chosen in publishing are always significant and important and are always used to either convey OR to obscure real meaning.

I can't attest to any merits or lack thereof for the "new" Goex as I haven't bought any, and don't plan to. I learned how to make my own powder after Goex went south and once what little Goex I have left is gone, I will be shooting my own stuff from there on out.

 

[Collie]

Anyone else have feedback on the new powder? Considering putting in an order on a case and weighing out if it's worth splurging for Swiss again (Didn't seem to make a noticeable difference for me previously) seems like a huge velocity spread on some that testing!

Yeah I did a little testing with the new powder recently and found that it's pretty much the same as old Goex with one major caveat: it's less dense than old Goex. If you load with the same charge by weight as old Goex it looks like it burns more or less exactly the same. It gave me the same accuracy and burned just as clean as old Goex did.

I was shooting a 58 musket with minies for this test. It used to get loaded with 40 grains by volume of old Goex and shot a group at 50 yards less than an inch wide. With new Goex I tried this same charge by volume and it opened up to about 5 inches. I weighed out the old Goex 40 grains charge and found it was about 42 grains by weight. If I loaded 42 grains by weight of new Goex it would shoot exactly the same size group.

This same 42 grain by weight charge of new Goex measure out at about 45 grains by volume. If you're measuring by volume like most people do, I would say add about 11% compared to what you used to shoot with old Goex and it will behave the same way.

This is just from my testing with one gun and one powder charge, so please don't take it as a rule of thumb, it's just what I'll be doing going forward.

 

[BillinOregon]

Thanks to Dale and all those adding data points.

 

[Rifleman1776]

t the weighed charges of new Goex shoot with similar effect as charges of similar weight of the old Goex

That is all that matters. What works - works. Don't sweat the small stuff.

 

[Buckskinquin]

Estes, as in the model rocket company? They use BP for fuel in their rocket motors.

Yep, found in neighborhood, post 4th.