New Guy: CVA Hawken v. Traditions Deerhunter (Or Something Else?)

[LFC]

Howdy--first post here. I've been a shooter for years, have done some caplock rifle shooting, and a little flintlock pistol shooting--making my own flints, etc. The time has come to get a flintlock rifle, but cost is going to be a major factor. I'm giving serious thought to getting a left-hander, as I anticipate that one of my southpaw kids is going to end up owning this thing not too many years hence.

I've come across two different models that look like they might do the trick, and at a relatively-low price: Traditions Deerhunter and CVA Hawken. I've heard that the CVA's breech-plug has a small channel connecting the touchhole to the main charge, resulting in slow fires and, therefore, inaccuracy. True? Any work-arounds to avoid this? Also, I can't help but think it'd be hard to keep the CVA breech area clean with that setup. True? I love the looks of the CVA, comparatively, but if it's going to be less accurate and harder to keep clean due to that weird breech design, I'd probably best look elsewhere--regretfully.

Also, is it true that the Traditions Deerhunter has a plastic trigger guard? If so, any tips on where to get a real (= metal) replacement? Likewise with sights--I know the Deerhunter has plastic sights; easiest way to get metal ones of the right configuration? (If push comes to shove, I may just drag out my old Foxfire volume and make 'em myself.)

I suppose I ought also to ask about Traditions' Kentucky Rifle--available in kit form for about the same $200 as the other two, though that two-piece long stock might be good to pass up--I have in mind going for a more-traditional long rifle a few years down the road, after I've got at least some basic guns to get the family out onto the range and burning powder, and I may just hold off on the longbarrel until that later date.

Finally, I'd welcome any tips about where to look for the best prices. I've come up short at the local shops; have checked out Midsouth, Cabela's, DGW, Northern Rifleman, Track of the Wolf, and Bass Pro. Any hints on better places to get low prices on flintlocks?

Thanks in advance; I'm grateful to y'all for keeping this place in existence, and for the collective wisdom.

 

[cowpoke1955]

Unfortunately, CVA no longer produce traditional black powder weapons. You can still find them on the used market. I have not heard anything good about Traditions flintlocks. The CVA breech area is the same on just about all production guns. They work just fine. For a little more you can get a Lyman Trade Rifle. It is a much better quality all way round. For a bit more than the Trade Rifle, you can get a Lyman Great Plains Rifle kit. Lyman locks are sure sparkers. Midsouth Shooters has some of the best prices. By the way, welcome aboard :hatsoff: .

 

[tg]

I would think the LGP or TC Hawken in flint would be the best deal in a production level gun, flintlocks are a gamble when trying to save money as a good quality flintlock( just the assembled lock) will run $125, you may get by with a less costly flinter by one of the many production outfits but many could be a real roll of the dice, been there done that. almost threw one over the hill.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

cva mountain rifle is what i'd be looking for. I own a .54 flintlock and it is fast. So far im getting 2" groups @ 100 yards with 80 grains ffg, .010 patch and a .530 roundball. And the 348grain powerbelts are showing promise with the 1:66 twist too! But to answer your question, CVA Hawken i'd get if it were between the 2 rifles u asked about.

 

[bwhoffman]

IMHO,
for the money, and the "want" of a left hander...I would look at the Lyman GPR in flint. Have seen some nice ones built from kit and a slew of info here on the forum on builds.

cant right off say I have owned one, but I WILL at some point in my tennure!
Ihave TC's and CVA's, probly the only one I would part with IF I had to would be the spanish cva hawken, but it is a shooter!


WELCOME by the way!

 

[Robert Egler]

Welcome! :grin: I can't say much about the Traditions deerhunter, but I have the Traditions Hawken in flint. I know some people have had problems with Traditions flintlocks, but I personally have never had a problem, and the lock works well, as long as you use real black powder.
I may just be one of the lucky ones who got a good flintlock from Traditions, I can't say, but I've never had a problem.

 

[PreglerD]

Hello from Germany,

I had a Traditions Kentucky flinter pistol. Lock worked always well. But I would think about a Lyman trade rifle in flint. It is a good choice and reliable and the priceclass is similar to the Traditions Deerhunter.

Regards

Kirrmeister

 

[MikeChapin]

...I've heard that the CVA's breech-plug has a small channel connecting the touchhole to the main charge, resulting in slow fires and, therefore, inaccuracy. True?...

The percussion models have a drum that goes through the breechplug that has a longer channel. This needs to be kept clean or you can get misfires. The flint model just has a standard touch hole without a long flash channel.

I suppose I ought also to ask about Traditions' Kentucky Rifle--available in kit form for about the same $200 as the other two, though that two-piece long stock might be good to pass up...

I cut down one of these for my wife. She shot it until it died in a fire. She brought home a lot of plunder with that piece. They work fine and most shoot better than the operator.

tg is right about cheap flintlocks. Sometimes you get one that works well and sometimes you get a piece of junk that doesn't work for beans.

 

[FlintlockJonny]

From a guy who only owns a cheap flintlock and have never shot an expensive flintlock, I have just as much fun with mine and shoot tight groups from 50 yards. I haven't tried any further yet. Shoots everytime and haven't had a single problem with it. Traditions Deerhunter. I know if you buy an expensive one you won't be disappointed, but if all you can afford is a cheaper one, don't expect an $800 gun, but they still work, and you still have fun. Mine was a Christmas gift but was $200 bucks with accessories. If thats your market, I will say buy it. My buddy has one too, and has taken about 3 deer with his already. all on public land.

 

Hi Comus,
Welcome to the forum.
The bottom line is you get what you pay for.
You can get more gun for the money if you go with a kit.
I have done two traditions Kentucky rifle kits.
One in flint and one in cap.
These are not top of the line rifles, but with proper care they will do the job.
You could get a lyman gpr kit for a little over $300.00 if you look around.
Lyman rifles are very close to being P/C., they are very accurate and capable of taking any North American game.
But the best on the market are the custom or semi custom guns.
The locks are the very best,top quality parts all around.
These are pics of a traditions Kentucky rifle kit in flint.
I bought some en lays and a patch box and added to it.
If you don't like the two piece stock there are ways of hiding it.

 

[LFC]

Thanks for the input so far, guys--keep it coming! 82 Airborne, you mention ways of hiding the two-piece nature of those two-piece Kentucky stocks. Like what?

 

You can cut a piece of wood to replace the brass piece.
Use the brass piece as a template and cut a piece of wood that matches it.
Go ahead and assemble as you would the brass piece. The two pieces of stock are pinned together.Epoxey if you want,
Then just sand and blend the outside of the stock until it matches as one piece.

These kits have all the work already done.
They are a lot of fun to put together.

 

[Runner]

The CVA and Tradition's guns use the exact same breach and they were made on the same assembly lines. The flinters use the exact same breach as the cap guns do. The only difference is in the "drum" that is screwed into the plug. CVA used to convert them for 19$ plus shipping. I have heard of CVA's with a normal flint set up, but I have never seen one.
The Lyman guns and the Basspro Hawken are made in the same plant. Sometimes you can catch the BassPro Hawken used for a good price. The Lyman GPR is the top choice in the lower priced end. Lots of folks with the cheaper Trade Rifle are very happy with their guns!
The Tradition's Deerhunter flintlock is a very nice no frills little rifle. The sights are plastic as you mentioned. The trigger guard is plastic. There is no entry pipe or even an under rib. The pipe is on a block that holds it far enough from the barrel. The buttplate is rubber or flexible plastic and appears to be glued on. On mine, the trigger pull is acceptable for a hunting gun. The lock loses prime as you move thru the woods, so you have to keep a check on it and hold the rifle so that isn't as much of a problem. It has a short barrel and sling hardware. The Pan is a shallow dish that has a channel that points at the flash hole. There is enough metal to correct this, but it works ok the way it is. Mine fires everytime I do my part, and pretty quick also. The lock geometry is such that you have to use very small flints, and the lock bashes them pretty bad. Don't expect the 100 shot flint life that people report here using other locks. The flint works best with the bevel down so that it hits higher on the frizzen. They are very accurate. The short barrel combined with the very light weight make the gun a joy to handle in the field, but the lock losing prime offsets the handling characteristics. For the price that they want retail, the Lyman is so much more gun that it would be hard to make an argument for the little Deerhunter. Having said that, the little carbine length gun killed my first flinter buck with it's first shot in the woods, and the handling makes you want to carry it with you. If the lock did not lose prime as you slip thru the woods, it would be a great little gun. The front sight on mine has a dovetail. The rear sight appears to be screwed on, so sight replacement requires a proper part or cutting a dovetail. The lock has no internal bridle and no fly. On some of them, the center hole was loose enough that you could push sideways on the hammer at full cock and the lock would release the hammer. If you find this condition, then the lock needs replacing for safety reasons.
Further, unless you are just wanting a flinter of any description, the flint guns from the flint era were pretty much all fullstock guns. If that matters to you, then you need a full stock gun. That pretty much kills your already mentioned choices right there. You are better off saving for a few months and getting a fullstock gun in the long run.
Who makes the top cheap full stock gun? Someone else will have to answer that one! All my guns are halfstocks.

 

[J.D.]

Do you want cheap or a serviceable rifle? Cheap is cheap. Cheap means poor quality locks and CVA snd Tradtions are known for poor quality locks. If you want good value, the Lyman GPR or a TC is my recommendation. They aren't all that expensive and they are quality.

I cannot recommend CVA, Traditions, or Pedersolis unless you want to learn to work on locks.
J.D.

 

[LFC]

Runner, I'm a little surprised at your "same breech" statement, so let me see if I understand it correctly. I had previously understood that CVA's flintlock breech-plugs had a hole in the front end, sort of a tunnel into the breech-plug, with the touch-hole coming in from the side at the bottom or back end of that hole in the breech-plug. (One effect of this, just to make sure you and I are on the same page and communicating the same idea, is that if you ran your ramrod down into the unloaded barrel of a CVA gun, I think the ramrod would not reach all the way back to the touch-hole; rather, the ramrod would only go as far in as the face of the breechplug, and would stop maybe a half-inch short of where the touch-hole is.)

1. Is that an accurate description of how CVA's "patented" breechplugs work?

2. Are you saying that Traditions' flintlock breechplugs are made in the same way--that is, with the hole in the front end of the breechplug? I'd always thought Traditions breechplugs just had a flat face, with the touch-hole coming in from the side.

Thanks for your help, y'all.

 

[ssettle]

Try Doing a search on the internet for pawn shops in your general area, you might get lucky unless you want something brand new. Good luck, Ssettle

 

[Runner]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. The only difference between my Hawken caplock and my flintlock is that one has a touch hole and the other has a drum that extends out far enough to screw a nipple into it. Old models with a touchhole that was aligned with the front of the breechplug are reported, but I have never seen one. A barrel built that way would not fit the recognized CVA Hawken stock/lock arraingement. There would not be enough room for the breechplug behind the touchhole. My Traditions Deerhunter uses a screw in liner that fires thru a patent breechplug. I do not know if it has the locking bolt type of patent breech like CVA, or if it is just a plug with a powder chamber and a liner. It definately has the same powder channel thru the plug type of system. Somewhere I have a picture of a drum that is out being converted to a flint liner instead of a cap nipple.
The lock design is more of a concern than the flash channel when it comes to those types of flintlocks. Mine bashes a small flint and even the best don't go much past 20 strikes without knapping or grinding.
The CVA is a much nicer gun if you can find one. The Hawken has set triggers and a much higher quality of build to the lock with an internal bridle and better finished parts. The lock is shaped like a Hawken lock, not the Maslin lock plate that the Mountain rifle and the Deerhunter use. The Deerhunter is shorter and lighter, but no where near the gun the CVA Hawken is. If you can find a CVA Hawken flint cheap, or even a cheap caplock with a decent barrel, then the price of a replacement lock puts you into a very nice starter gun.
If you want quick, the breechplug needs to be coned. A coned plug, a good liner, and the LR lock is a very sweet setup with very fast ignition!
The set triggers are very hard to beat with the weak link being the front trigger spring. They seldom ever fail if the trigger set is left in the stock.
Of course, about then you will want to start hanging with other flintlock shooters, and you will wish you had a full stock gun to fit in better. Somehow an eastern coat, tricorn, broghan shoes, and leggins look pretty strange carrying a halfstock anything around!
I hope I live to kill as many more deer as my CVA Hawken has taken over the years already tho!
Hope that helps! By the way, my CVA shotgun and the extra barrel for it use normal snail patent breeches. They are the only ones I have ever owned that did.
Hope that helps!

 

[Jumpshot]

 

[John Strong]

If I were to shoot an off the shelf muzzleloader, it would be a lyman great plains rifle. That being said, you can get a Cabelas Hawken for a lot less money. The Cabelas rifle is made by the same company that makes Lyman. They use the same locks and triggers. My past experience with CVA or Traditions is the frizzens ate much to soft. It seems like they only last a year or so. Many people with a traditions, CVA, or even sometimes a TC have a lyman Fizeen fit to them because they are alot harder.

 

[LFC]

Thanks for all the help, guys. Where's the best, cheapest place to get a Lyman frizzen, by the way? And how hard is it to replace a frizzen once you've got one of the right model? And what's an average or good price for them?