arrowheadtax
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Can anyone tell me what Siler or L&R lock will fit the Pedersoli Kentucky Rifle?
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new lock not usre what to buy
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Stubert
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I have a pennsylvania pedersolli that I tried to get a lock for and was told by L&R that they do not make one to fit. I believe that they both use the same lock. If you get a Track of the Wolf catolouge they have actual size photo's of locks, You might find one that will fit with only minor fitting.
Larry Pletcher
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Jim Chambers (who makes Silers) does not produce a lock designed as a replacement to fit into a production gun. One of his might come close to fitting, but he doesn't intentionally build for that type of market, while L&R does.
Bill Cox (L&R) realized that there was a need for a replacement lock for some of the less expensive production guns and began this as an addition to his line of lock styles. He told me once which of his locks was used for the moving parts on the replacement locks. I believe is was the Manton. I haven't heard a report since Sept, but Cox had been in poor health. I hope we don't lose him; he is one of the good guys.
Regards,
Pletch
Bill Cox (L&R) realized that there was a need for a replacement lock for some of the less expensive production guns and began this as an addition to his line of lock styles. He told me once which of his locks was used for the moving parts on the replacement locks. I believe is was the Manton. I haven't heard a report since Sept, but Cox had been in poor health. I hope we don't lose him; he is one of the good guys.
Regards,
Pletch
arrowheadtax
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Thanks for the replies.
Why do you want a replacement lock? Is there a problem with the existing lock?
Many lock problems can be solved by the owner pretty easily, some problems require the services of ML gunsmith, few require complete replacement of the lock.
J.D.
Many lock problems can be solved by the owner pretty easily, some problems require the services of ML gunsmith, few require complete replacement of the lock.
J.D.
arrowheadtax
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The lock on the gun now does not spark well. It seems the hammer angle is wrong or something. The frizzen may also be a tad too soft. I'm probably getting 2 ignitions out of 10 tries. I'm using quality flint. The problem is that the flint is just against the frizzen at half cock...it tries to hold the frizzen open...even with a very tiny flint. I hate that and want to be able to carry the gun without powder spilling out.
Before you spend a bunch of money on a new lock try adjusting the flint. you can break of a small
amount off the back edge of the flint that would allow you to move it back. Try turning the flint over so it hits higher on the fizzen. Finaly some times you get a crapppy flint have you tryed changing it out?
amount off the back edge of the flint that would allow you to move it back. Try turning the flint over so it hits higher on the fizzen. Finaly some times you get a crapppy flint have you tryed changing it out?
Petersoli frizzens are known for having a thin case hardening, so you may have worn through the case.
IMHO, you don't need to replace the existing lock.
You can easily harden the frizzen if you have acess to an acetelyne torch, mapp gas, or even a BBQ grill and lump charcoal.
Brazing a shoe on your old frizzen is the longest lasting repair, if you know someone who can do the brazing.
As to the flint being too long, that is a common problem with many locks. I have the same problem with an L&R classic lock, so buying a new lock may not solve that problem.
Track of the Wolf sells shorter flints, however, most people simply knap a notch on the back of the flint to provide that clearance.
The leather that holds the flint in the jaws can be notched too, and must be notched if you notch the flints.
Let us know what you decide to do, and we can offer advice, depending on what equipment is available to you.
J.D.
IMHO, you don't need to replace the existing lock.
You can easily harden the frizzen if you have acess to an acetelyne torch, mapp gas, or even a BBQ grill and lump charcoal.
Brazing a shoe on your old frizzen is the longest lasting repair, if you know someone who can do the brazing.
As to the flint being too long, that is a common problem with many locks. I have the same problem with an L&R classic lock, so buying a new lock may not solve that problem.
Track of the Wolf sells shorter flints, however, most people simply knap a notch on the back of the flint to provide that clearance.
The leather that holds the flint in the jaws can be notched too, and must be notched if you notch the flints.
Let us know what you decide to do, and we can offer advice, depending on what equipment is available to you.
J.D.
If the flint is holding the frizzen open on half cock, you have the wrong flint. It should be 1/8" off the frizzen to just barely touching it.
Cut a notch in the jaw leather & push it back & have the bevel Up on the flint. If it is still too long you have the wrong flint. Possibly it takes the square flints that Tracks sell ? They are 3/4 x 3/4. A std. 3/4 flint is 3/4 x 7/8.
Or you might try knapping yours down to where it doesn't hold the frizzen open.
Als it must sit parallel in the hammer with the bottom of the jaw. If the flint has a peaked hump & it is tipping down, that won't work. The flint has to sit in the jaw parallel with the base of the jaw. If you have a hump in it grind the hump off flat with a Mizzy Wheel or add a lil epoxy (NA)A) and mix just a small ball of it & press around the rear edge of the top of the flint & make the top level. NAPA has some epoxi (SonicWeld) tht is dark gray & you just slice off a tad with a razorblade & knead it & push it on the flint & let it sit for 4-5 hrs & it works great for this & ya don't notice it as of the dark gray color.
Cut a notch in the jaw leather & push it back & have the bevel Up on the flint. If it is still too long you have the wrong flint. Possibly it takes the square flints that Tracks sell ? They are 3/4 x 3/4. A std. 3/4 flint is 3/4 x 7/8.
Or you might try knapping yours down to where it doesn't hold the frizzen open.
Als it must sit parallel in the hammer with the bottom of the jaw. If the flint has a peaked hump & it is tipping down, that won't work. The flint has to sit in the jaw parallel with the base of the jaw. If you have a hump in it grind the hump off flat with a Mizzy Wheel or add a lil epoxy (NA)A) and mix just a small ball of it & press around the rear edge of the top of the flint & make the top level. NAPA has some epoxi (SonicWeld) tht is dark gray & you just slice off a tad with a razorblade & knead it & push it on the flint & let it sit for 4-5 hrs & it works great for this & ya don't notice it as of the dark gray color.
Baed on your last description, you have tried to adjust the size of your flint to the point that you have a very tiny flint and the flint still holds the lock open at half cock. More telling is that you don't get good spark in any event. With a properly hardened frizzen you might be able to use the gun for targets, giving up the half-cock and only priming immediately before firing.
I think that you have compounding problems that may only be cured by a ML gunsmith. The geometry of the hammer to the frizzen needs to be corrected and the frizzen needs to be hardened.
I think that you have compounding problems that may only be cured by a ML gunsmith. The geometry of the hammer to the frizzen needs to be corrected and the frizzen needs to be hardened.
arrowheadtax
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Just to clarify a bit...I'm using black english flint and am very good at knapping them. I am using a tiny little flint with a notch cut into the back. I'm using a lead pad on top and below the flint....and sliding the flint back against the screw. It seems the angle of the flint in relation to the frizzen is wrong. I have worked as a welder in the past and can harden the frizzen and also bend the hammer. I think the angle is off. If this symbol > is the flint and this symbol \ is the frizzen.....can anyone tell me what the angle should be between >|at the lower junction?
Also...I have the flint hitting very near the top of the frizzen. About 3/16th to 1/4 inch from the top. The sparks seem to be landing just behind the pan. Someone told me it should maybe be hitting lower on the frizzen...just above half way.
I've tried black english, agates,saw cut and other flints. I think we can rule out the flint. I have a known good flint in there now. It sends showers of spark out of my T/C. Any and all help is appreciated. Thanks.
Also...I have the flint hitting very near the top of the frizzen. About 3/16th to 1/4 inch from the top. The sparks seem to be landing just behind the pan. Someone told me it should maybe be hitting lower on the frizzen...just above half way.
I've tried black english, agates,saw cut and other flints. I think we can rule out the flint. I have a known good flint in there now. It sends showers of spark out of my T/C. Any and all help is appreciated. Thanks.
This video might be of some help in determining flint to frizzen angle.
[url] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFKxKXtkPzE&mode=related&search=[/url]
Another site that may help;
[url] http://members.aol.com/illinewek/faqs/locktime.htm[/url]
There is also a German ML site that has several drawings of proper flintlock geometry, but I can't seem to find it.
J.D.
[url] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFKxKXtkPzE&mode=related&search=[/url]
Another site that may help;
[url] http://members.aol.com/illinewek/faqs/locktime.htm[/url]
There is also a German ML site that has several drawings of proper flintlock geometry, but I can't seem to find it.
J.D.
Last edited by a moderator:
I had a though last night. Could you post pictures of both the inside and outside of the lock?
You may be able to make a new sear with a longer nose to force the tumbler to rotate more to the rear. That will give the clearance to the flint.
Sears can be made of 1/4 inch thick angle iron, or even 1/4 inch plate with the sear bar bent with heat.
The neck of the hammer can be bent with heat, as can the breast, below the neck.
Bending the breast and neck, kinda like stretching and pulling them to the back of the lock plate, can also give more clearance, but ya gotta be REAL careful.
When the hammer is fully depressed, the flint should point to the center of the pan.
Frizzens can also be made of 1/4 inch angle iron.
They will need case hardening, of better yet, a shoe of 1095 steel.
There are solutions when you can't buy replacement parts.
IMHO, your best bet is trying to buy a new frizzen and hammer. However, replacements won't guarantee a proper fit and geometry.
J.D.
You may be able to make a new sear with a longer nose to force the tumbler to rotate more to the rear. That will give the clearance to the flint.
Sears can be made of 1/4 inch thick angle iron, or even 1/4 inch plate with the sear bar bent with heat.
The neck of the hammer can be bent with heat, as can the breast, below the neck.
Bending the breast and neck, kinda like stretching and pulling them to the back of the lock plate, can also give more clearance, but ya gotta be REAL careful.
When the hammer is fully depressed, the flint should point to the center of the pan.
Frizzens can also be made of 1/4 inch angle iron.
They will need case hardening, of better yet, a shoe of 1095 steel.
There are solutions when you can't buy replacement parts.
IMHO, your best bet is trying to buy a new frizzen and hammer. However, replacements won't guarantee a proper fit and geometry.
J.D.
arrowheadtax
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Ok...I've done some studying and the angle of the hammer is indeed off by more than 10 degrees. The hammer needs to be bent and pulled back. I think your last posts confirmed it for me JD. Thanks you very much for all the help. Have you ever done this to a hammer? I also have to wonder (as you stated) if I were to buy a new hammer from perdersoli, if it would be the correct angle?
I have bent a coupla of hammers with fairly good results. I have not stretched one, but there are other fixes for the clearance issue.
Decide how much and which way the hammer needs to bend, clamp the hammer in a vise, heat the the bottom of the neck, with top jaw and screw in place, to prevent distortion of the screw hole, and bend with a wrench.
Hammers are soft steel and do not require heat treating.
Check to insure that the flint points to the center of the pan, then deal with the flint/frizzen clearance.
Some guns require a short flint, but the issue of clearance between flint and frizzen at half cock can be remedied if there is clearance between the flint and the pan when the hammer is fully depressed.
unfortunately, it is sometimes not feasable, time and equipment wise, to try to compensate for lack of clearance between the pan and flint. So's we sometimes just gotta buy short flints from track of the wolf, or reduce the length of those flints we have.
IF the flint does not bash into the pan when the hammer is fully depressed, you can make a new sear with a slightly longer nose. A longer nose will cause the hammer to rotate farther back, giving more clearance between the flint and frizzen, at half cock.
IF you have a welder, the step on the back of the hammer can be welded and refiled so that the hammer makes contact with the top of the lockplate
with the hammer at a higher angle, providing that clearance between the flint and the pan.
Lock parts are cast steel, so that is an issue when building up lock parts.
The nose of the sear can be ground down a bit, and new steel brazed on to form a longer nose. Brazing will hold up well in this application. Welding the nose will distort the front part of the sear, often including the pivot hole, so brazing would be the way to go in building up the sear nose.
I think Thunder Ridge Muzzleloading sells parts for Petersoli locks. Track of the Wolf carries parts that can be made to work, as does Dixie Gun Works.
IMHO, I would try Thunder Ridge to see if they have the necessary parts. Be aware that new Petersoli parts may or may not fit correctly.
The good thing about Track of the Wolf's catalog is that their photos of parts are full size, so you can match a new cock or sear to yours.
All of those companies have web pages and should come up with a simple search.
You will probably have to drill and file the square mounting hole and top jaw screw hole in a blank hammer, or drill a pivot hole on a new sear, but it might be easier to go that way, as opposed to making new parts, or heavily modifying the old ones. IMHO, bending the hammer is a minor modification.
IF you do find a new sear blank that will work, it will need to be heat treated, but that is easily done.
Track may, or may not, have a finished sear with a nose slightly longer than the one on your lock.
IMHO, making a new sear is not difficult. The only tools required are a hack saw, file, and a drill. A drill press would be nice, but not absolutely necessary.
These old guns can be pure joy to shoot and mess with. They can also be pure hell when you get a bad lock.
Bad locks CAN be made to perform as well as high quality locks, but IMHO, the time and effort is often not worth the aggravation.
J.D.
Decide how much and which way the hammer needs to bend, clamp the hammer in a vise, heat the the bottom of the neck, with top jaw and screw in place, to prevent distortion of the screw hole, and bend with a wrench.
Hammers are soft steel and do not require heat treating.
Check to insure that the flint points to the center of the pan, then deal with the flint/frizzen clearance.
Some guns require a short flint, but the issue of clearance between flint and frizzen at half cock can be remedied if there is clearance between the flint and the pan when the hammer is fully depressed.
unfortunately, it is sometimes not feasable, time and equipment wise, to try to compensate for lack of clearance between the pan and flint. So's we sometimes just gotta buy short flints from track of the wolf, or reduce the length of those flints we have.
IF the flint does not bash into the pan when the hammer is fully depressed, you can make a new sear with a slightly longer nose. A longer nose will cause the hammer to rotate farther back, giving more clearance between the flint and frizzen, at half cock.
IF you have a welder, the step on the back of the hammer can be welded and refiled so that the hammer makes contact with the top of the lockplate
with the hammer at a higher angle, providing that clearance between the flint and the pan.
Lock parts are cast steel, so that is an issue when building up lock parts.
The nose of the sear can be ground down a bit, and new steel brazed on to form a longer nose. Brazing will hold up well in this application. Welding the nose will distort the front part of the sear, often including the pivot hole, so brazing would be the way to go in building up the sear nose.
I think Thunder Ridge Muzzleloading sells parts for Petersoli locks. Track of the Wolf carries parts that can be made to work, as does Dixie Gun Works.
IMHO, I would try Thunder Ridge to see if they have the necessary parts. Be aware that new Petersoli parts may or may not fit correctly.
The good thing about Track of the Wolf's catalog is that their photos of parts are full size, so you can match a new cock or sear to yours.
All of those companies have web pages and should come up with a simple search.
You will probably have to drill and file the square mounting hole and top jaw screw hole in a blank hammer, or drill a pivot hole on a new sear, but it might be easier to go that way, as opposed to making new parts, or heavily modifying the old ones. IMHO, bending the hammer is a minor modification.
IF you do find a new sear blank that will work, it will need to be heat treated, but that is easily done.
Track may, or may not, have a finished sear with a nose slightly longer than the one on your lock.
IMHO, making a new sear is not difficult. The only tools required are a hack saw, file, and a drill. A drill press would be nice, but not absolutely necessary.
These old guns can be pure joy to shoot and mess with. They can also be pure hell when you get a bad lock.
Bad locks CAN be made to perform as well as high quality locks, but IMHO, the time and effort is often not worth the aggravation.
J.D.
Well, if it is hitting near the top of the frizzen & you have the Bevel on the flint Up, then it is not hitting right. It should be hitting about 2/3rds of the way up on the frizzen.
Only thing I can think of that could be the problem is the flint length being too long & that would make it hit near the top. Seems strange they make all of those locks & now one is the wrong angle, unless it was purchased used & someone has already bent it. :hmm:
I guess you don't know anyone close by with one like it you could compare to ?
You might try calling Ed Caine at Cain's Outdoors & see if he has a lock similar you could send it to him for comparison & adjustment.
Only thing I can think of that could be the problem is the flint length being too long & that would make it hit near the top. Seems strange they make all of those locks & now one is the wrong angle, unless it was purchased used & someone has already bent it. :hmm:
I guess you don't know anyone close by with one like it you could compare to ?
You might try calling Ed Caine at Cain's Outdoors & see if he has a lock similar you could send it to him for comparison & adjustment.
I have a coupla Petersolis and had to bend the hammer on both to get 'em where they should be.
IMHO, Petersoli's quality control is pretty poor. Some locks seem pretty good, others are piss poor.
Even the locks on higher end Petersolis need some tweeking to get 'em right.
J.D.
IMHO, Petersoli's quality control is pretty poor. Some locks seem pretty good, others are piss poor.
Even the locks on higher end Petersolis need some tweeking to get 'em right.
J.D.
