New old shotgun

[rebel727]

Just got my hands on a nice Belgian percussion SXS supposedly circa 1840. Still has all the checkering tho a lil flat. Has deep scrollwork on the wrist as well as engraving on the trigger guard, locks and barrel rib. Has german silver wedge plates and a shield inlay behind the tang. One of the hammers has had some repair work and one of the ramrod thimbles is missing.

 

[Dave K]

One nice thing about the Belgian guns, is that the barrels are brazed together.(check though to make SURE) This will make it easier to solder on the missing thimble. Just use so real low temp solder. Another thing about these old shotguns is be sure to measure the bores. Some sellers call them for example, a 12ga., when in fact it is a 13ga., 14ga. or an 11ga. None of this is bad, but it is if you bought the wrong size cards and cushions. Enjoy!!!!!

 

[rebel727]

I got it from my gunsmith. He used it some so it's a 12. I don't think I'm going to shoot it tho, it would make me sick if I uncoiled one of those damascus barrels

 

[Leonredbeard]

Rebel,
Not to mention injured! I am concerned about this with my Lefever cartrdge shotgun too. It is too old and too nice to ruin, but it is wonderful to shoot. One writer said that if you get the urge to shoot a Dasmascus twist muzzleloading shotgun, go lay down until the urge goes away.
God bless.
volatpluvia

 

[paulvallandigham]

Gentlemen: Oscar Gaddy wrote A Piece in Double Gun Journal back in 1997, about Damascus Steel barrels, and current research finds that the DS barrels can actually withstand more pressure than modern steel barrels do! If there are no obvious deep pits, or corrosion in the barrel, or dents, go ahead and shoot the damascus gun. Treat them nicely, and load target loads( 2 1/2 drams, 1 oz. shot), but go ahead and enjoy them. The " IFs " I listed are very important, and is the motivation why others in the past 50 years, including the authors of the Hunter Safety manual used in all 50 states and Canada have given the admonition to NOT shoot these old guns. Many shooters are not SAFE themselves, don't listen to caution, don't know a gunsmith, and wouldn't take Grandpa's shotgun to one for inspection if they did have one around! If the gun is in good condition, and has been cared for over its life, there is no reason to NOT shoot it. Many of those guns ended up on the wall during either WWI, or WWII, when powder and primers were impossible to buy. When the men came back from the wars, they wanted new guns to shoot cartridges, simply because of their military training. So, those damascus guns stayed on the wall, getting cleaned and oiled often, but not used. As those vets are now dying, many of the guns are showing up in the hands of grandsons, who got into blackpowder shooting, and wonder if the old gun will still shoot. ALWAYS HAVE THE GUN INSPECTED BY A QUALIFIED GUNSMITH. He should have a borelight, and better, one of the borescopes, so he can do a careful examination of the bore from one end to the other, looking for pits, and cracks. He should have bore hones to use to remove surface rust, if present, so he can examine the bare steel underneath. But, if the gun gets a clean bill of health, I would shoot it. The low pressures used in target loads are not likely to cause any bursting of the barrels. I know of one case where a man was shooting a damascus barreled shotgun that did have a crack in front of the forearm, and he knew about it, and continued to shoot it, until a friend of mine suggested it would be better for him and the gun's future life it he had that crack welded by a gunsmith. We were watching the guy at a trap shoot, and saw flame and smoke coming out the side of the barrel! Just a little alarming, I might add! I heard later that the guy, who I didn't know, did get that crack welded, and continued to shoot the gun. At that time, I was a thorough convert to the " Don't ever shoot a Damascus Steel gun", crowd, as that is what I had been told and trained was the facts. Then, I met Oscar, and spent some time in his basement shop examing damascus shotguns, and sections of barrels he had refinished. When he published his works on refinishing damsacus steel, I got him to autograph my copy. We lost Oscar to Cancer about a year ago. But, I remember him explaining the data on how strong Damascus steel is compared to modern steels to my brother in February last year.

I have seen a lot of shotgun barrels made with modern steels that are so corroded that I would not want to risk shooting them. I think the same common sense standards can be applied to damascus barreled guns.

 

[Dave K]

Paul, you are right and I hope all read your post more than once. I shoot ALLOT of Damascus guns. Well over 3000 shells in my breech loaders a year and I really have no idea in my muzzleloading shotguns. Another thing, I have NEVER EVER seen a Damascus barrel turned into a spring. I have seen burst barrels, from obstructions though and that goes for any shotgun barrel. On a shotgun site that I frequent, this has been a much and often talked about topic. No one there has ever seen a Damascus barrel "unwound" as well. Of course there is always the "urban legends" that come from second hand stories. But, a well designed, maintained gun, that has been inspected by a qualified gunsmith, is going to be safe to shoot in the pressures it was designed to work in. The real issue is finding that qualified gunsmith. It is probably not the local gunsmight at all. He has been subjected to too many "urban legends" as well. It is going to be gunsmith's like Kirchner, Orlen and a few others that slip my mind right now. I won't own a wall hanger. It is either safe to shoot, or it is out of here. If you don't want to shoot it, that is fine. But, please maintain the gun for the next owner who may knowingly find it safe and want to shoot it as it is intended.

 

[Marc Adamchek]

Paul - I knew the great Oscar Gaddy only through electronic correspondence. What a thrill and an honor it must have been to be with him in his workshop!

 

[Marc Adamchek]

Paul - I knew the great Oscar Gaddy only through electronic correspondence. What a thrill and an honor it must have been to be with him in his workshop!

 

[rebel727]

The man I got it from is a gunsmith and custom gun builder. He's built a couple of centerfires for me. This gun has NO rust anywhere, just age patina. He's used it both hunting and shooting skeet but it's been years since he fired it. It does have a few hairline cracks in the stock I want to get fixed before/if I fire it.

 

[Leonredbeard]

Ok, I stand duly corrected, hee, hee! I shoot only BP or substitutes in my Lefever.
God bless.
volatpluvia

 

[jethro224]

I saw an unwound damascus barrel with my own eyes. I didn't see it being unwound, only after the fact. This was about 28 years ago.
The gun was a double barrel 12 ga and the right barrel was all sprung out. It belonged to a friends dad. He showed it to a bunch of us one day and told us to NEVER USE SMOKELESS SHELLS IN A DAMASCUS BARREL. :nono:
True story. But I'd still shoot it with light loads of black if it was me.

 

Paul, I am appaled ( or should i say a-paul-ed) that you would do such a dis-service to the ML shooting fraternaty by spreading the truth in such a clear and factual manner. It's hard enough for a poor sap like me to find good composite barrels for a reasonable price. You start educating people with facts and pretty soon I won't be able to afford these things any more. Geez man, where's your compassion. Don't you even CARE about my plight. Just the other day I read on another board of a damascus barreled gun that blew up in the trunk of a car and the thing wasn't even loaded. Now THAT'S the kind of stories that bear repeating. I'ld appreciate it if you'ld just keep the truth to yourself OK? :grin: . Personally, I'm doing my very best with meager means to collect as many of these "killer" barrels as I can afford to get them out of circulation, risking my own life to save the life of others. To all of you reading this, PLEASE help me in my selfless humanitarian act by selling (or giving :grin: ) me all your damascus barrels CHEAP. I will ensure you all get proper recognition and that as long as I live they will never leave my possesion.

Cody

BTW, yes I DID read about the gun in the trunk and yes it WAS written in jest for just such a topic. Oh and Paul, great post.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Oscar was a fine friend, and a very interesting man to know. His professional resume would knock your socks off, but his love for old shotguns, and his work with them made him the kind of gun guy every shooter wants to know. He was very quiet, and you learned to listen when he had something to say. I still miss him, and think of him often.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Cody: My heart goes out to you! I can't even afford to do more than look at the damascus guns I see at gun shows, so you must be having more luck than I ever will.

 

[Cmabie]

Gentlemen:
I have been shooting my grandad's rabbiteared Belgium double for years. It works great on pheasants. I handload my own black powder shells. Do not use smokeless powder in these guns. I have lived long enough to have seen several of them burst with smokeless light handloads. In fact I was standing right next to a guy shooting a beautiful Parker. The barrel on that one came unravelled like ribbons of steel. Before you shoot a gun like that make sure it is in sound condition. Also check that the firing pins do not puncture the primers. Do not shoot them with smokeless powder!

 

[rebel727]

What's a "firing pin"? :hmm: :grin:

 

[Dave K]

Shooting these old breechloaders is about pressures, not neccesarily about types of powders. When Damascus barrels were made,it wasn't because they were cheaper to make then fluid steel barrels, fluid steel barrels were cheaper to make. Much less labor intensive to make them. Plus as far as safety, metallurgy is not what it is today, so that it was NOT unusual for fluid barrels to have slag inclusions in the metal and they were also suspect. The troubles became when some fellow who was used to shooting 80gr. of BP in a gun now was loading the same gun with 80gr. of smokeless! This is the problem and many fluid barrels cannot take that kind of pressure either. Again, I have just read here about a barrel that blew up years ago, but the details of why, is lost to time. Another urban legend. Details of these barrels have been conducted and studies made, not just stories passed down from a friend of a cousins, who's brother in-law heard it happened. Some of these urban legends are likd getting VD off of a toliet seat. You may have got it while you were on that toliet seat, but it wasn't from the seat that you got it. I shoot allot of Damascus guns. I load them to safe pressures and most of my loads are less pressure than BP loads. Can I lose a barrel or worse? Sure I can, anytime you have your hands on a supposedly controled explosion, you are at risk regardless of barrel material. I am with Cody, I am doing all I can to save to world from the hazzards of Damascus barrels.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I have seen idiots shooting such outlandish loads of smokeless powder in their guns that blue flames came out of the back of the chamber! The guy said it was a " 4 Dram " load, but I didn't believe him then, and I still don't. I spoke to the Range officer about the guy, and his gun, but he wasn't inclined to say anything, or do anything. I left the range, and never went back.

When I hear stories about shotguns coming apart, I want to know all the details, starting with the name of the powder, the weight of the powder charge, the amount of shot used, and then the age and condition of the gun. I also want to know if the shooter was aware that he was using a gun in poor condition.

I know of one " Accident" involving a shooter using a Rem. 1100 against the advice and admonition of his son to not use it, because it had a crack in the chamber at the back of the barrel, where Remington had to pay a judgment for $80,000 for products Liability because the idiot went ahead and fired the gun anyway, causing it to rupture, and injure his hand. Negligence is not a defense to products liability, so the jury never heard all the witnesses to that statement by his son, and, of course, the company's attorneys were barred from bringing out the Plaintiff's negligence in shooting a gun he knew was broken. Some call that justice.

 

[rebel727]

Thanks for the input guys.

 

[rebel727]

If this gun were yours and you were going to use it would you remove the age patina or leave it? Everything is iron cept for the wedge plates.