New Parker Hale P58 owner

[Skitch]

I have been Hunting whitetails with a modern inline for several years. Not what you would call primative. While I don't really care for the plastic stock but, the rifle is accurate and deadly. I have had more hunting success with it than any other firearm.

What has brought me to the forum is learn more about my recently purchased Parker Hale Enfield P58, SN 36XXX and determine a starting point for load development. 575213PHs are on order. PH SN 36XXX has shown up on this forum previously. At one point it was apparently in New Hampshire. I purchased it from a guy in South Georgia who was using as wall decoration in an old house. It hasn't been shot much. While waiting on bullets, I am working on bedding and the trigger.

Namaste

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Sounds as though you have some exciting range time in your future.


Your thread was moved to Percussion Rifles so that you'd reach more Enfield shooters. I also edited out the full serial number for your rifle. It's a public forum and putting out the full number can lead to problems.

LD

 

[dave951]

Good luck with your PH. I shoot one in North South Skirmish competition. In my experience the ONLY source for quality minies is Lodgewood. The rest are round ball guys and don't understand what it takes for a minie rifle to be accurate. One further p piece of advice, use only real black powder.

 

[aussie pete]

Good luck with your PH. I shoot one in North South Skirmish competition. In my experience the ONLY source for quality minies is Lodgewood. The rest are round ball guys and don't understand what it takes for a minie rifle to be accurate. One further p piece of advice, use only real black powder.

Hey @dave951; no offence or ridicule taken with your comment, just fact checking from my perspective. I use round balls out of my PH58; the .562 and .570 balls shoot well with light charges and appropriate patch. And I know how to get a minie going well in this beauty too. Some of us round ball guys understand what it takes to get a minie rifle to be accurate: a not overly heavy charge, real black (I prefer FFFG), correct sized minie, just enough quality lube, and a skirt of the correct dimensions to grip the rifling nicely with the given charge. I'm sure the original poster, @Skitch, will have fun experimenting; and if he chooses to use round balls in his repertoire, I'm sure he's not committing a sacrilegious sin. Mixing the projectile types up a bit makes owning one of these rifled muskets so versatile and interesting.

I understand round balls will be out, when attending competitions in your fine association, I get that, but we don't all compete within such stringent parameters.

kindest regards, Pete

 

[Stumpkiller]

Enjoy working up a killing load. I always do.

 

[Skitch]

Minnies for me. I have some PH580s from S&S and some 575213s coming from R&R. Not sure of the difference. We'll see. Using pin gauges I have found my muzzle is a slip fit at .577, and I also have a sizing die at that size on the way. I know the R&R projectiles will be pure lead. Not sure about the S&S slugs. I will do some comparison hardness tests and see if there is a difference. It seems that target shooters like pure lead and relatively light charges. I wonder if a harder bullet might work well with a heavier charge. For hunting I see a benefit to a load that will allow the rear sight to work at various ranges as intended. I have dreams of doing a western Elk hunt. Some states have an early muzzle loading season.

 

[tjiann]

My P58 is also a true .577 bore. I size minies to .576 for it.

 

[dave951]

@aussie pete - IF you cast your own and know what it takes to make a minie shoot well, then fair dinkum mate!

The REAL issue here is the COMMERCIAL source for minies. In years of shooting these critters, I've found only a couple commercial sources that understand that minies have to be from pure lead. Most commercial guys are usually casting from range scrap, wheel weight, or unknown alloy and while that's not an issue with round ball, it's a crap shoot as to whether or not they'll work as minies. The unsuspecting noob shooting minies will think all minies are alike, but that's light years from the truth. I've seen minies from about every COMMERCIAL source in the US and the ONLY one I trust is Lodgewood because the guy doing their casting is a North South Skirmish member who also shoots minies in competition. Also, the proprietors of Lodgewood understand what constitutes a quality minie for these guns.

Again, not to cast shade on the round ball suppliers in the US and they know round ball, but if you go anywhere other than Lodgewood, you could well end up with a minie from hard lead that will never shoot properly. Our new shooter then will conclude that minies are trash and start spouting this all over the interwebs. The reason I preach on this is to help educate the new guys on this subject. One of the worst sources for information on minies I've found is reenactors. Next to that, the guy who read something somewhere. Next is the poor soul who followed the bad advice and now thinks it's gospel.

But what would N-SSA guys know about making minies shoot....

62 Colt Contract-

Parker Hale P58

 

[aussie pete]

@aussie pete - IF you cast your own and know what it takes to make a minie shoot well, then fair dinkum mate!

The REAL issue here is the COMMERCIAL source for minies. In years of shooting these critters, I've found only a couple commercial sources that understand that minies have to be from pure lead. Most commercial guys are usually casting from range scrap, wheel weight, or unknown alloy and while that's not an issue with round ball, it's a manure shoot as to whether or not they'll work as minies. The unsuspecting noob shooting minies will think all minies are alike, but that's light years from the truth. I've seen minies from about every COMMERCIAL source in the US and the ONLY one I trust is Lodgewood because the guy doing their casting is a North South Skirmish member who also shoots minies in competition. Also, the proprietors of Lodgewood understand what constitutes a quality minie for these guns.

Again, not to cast shade on the round ball suppliers in the US and they know round ball, but if you go anywhere other than Lodgewood, you could well end up with a minie from hard lead that will never shoot properly. Our new shooter then will conclude that minies are trash and start spouting this all over the interwebs. The reason I preach on this is to help educate the new guys on this subject. One of the worst sources for information on minies I've found is reenactors. Next to that, the guy who read something somewhere. Next is the poor soul who followed the bad advice and now thinks it's gospel.

But what would N-SSA guys know about making minies shoot....

62 Colt Contract-
View attachment 330835

Parker Hale P58
View attachment 330836

You know what @dave951? I think I recognise those targets! When I started casting minies, I used this forum to get the best info I could about rifled musketry using minies; I pumped 'accurate loads for Parker Hale using minies' into the search engine of the forum and came up with almost every conversation using the 53 and 58 (I have both). So, long story short, turns out you were one of the lads who helped me out! A big thanks for that . You are right about casting - the process places me in an advantage (quality wise) of lads like you who rely on commercial products; mind, there are no, zero, nil commercial suppliers of minies here in Australia, and postage of minies from the good old US of A would be prohibitive.

I was fortunate to be able to try a range of minies from club members here in Townsville, finding what works best, before I bought my own moulds. And as you well know from your skirmishing lads and own experiences, a load and minie that works in the 58 may not perform in the longer barreled 53. Yep, soft lead is key! I feel like a king when I get my hands on plumbers roofing lead, dead soft, makes the best balls and minies. By the way, in a broad google search regarding use of minies, I gleaned a lot of info from members of N-SSA. I was impressed by their website too - a couple of great videos there, with a competition line that looks a mile long! And as an old soldier (23 years Army), I was quite taken by how they managed safety with the Controller in the tower and a Safety Officer for each detail.

If you were close to home, I would invite you over for a casting session where you could make a swag of your own, but there's a few miles and a lot of water between us! Enjoy those Lodgewood supplies; it's fortunate you have a reliable supplier who knows what he's on about.

Kindest regards, and thanks for your response,

Pete

 

[dave951]

You know what @dave951? I think I recognise those targets! When I started casting minies, I used this forum to get the best info I could about rifled musketry using minies; I pumped 'accurate loads for Parker Hale using minies' into the search engine of the forum and came up with almost every conversation using the 53 and 58 (I have both). So, long story short, turns out you were one of the lads who helped me out! A big thanks for that . You are right about casting - the process places me in an advantage (quality wise) of lads like you who rely on commercial products; mind, there are no, zero, nil commercial suppliers of minies here in Australia, and postage of minies from the good old US of A would be prohibitive.

I was fortunate to be able to try a range of minies from club members here in Townsville, finding what works best, before I bought my own moulds. And as you well know from your skirmishing lads and own experiences, a load and minie that works in the 58 may not perform in the longer barreled 53. Yep, soft lead is key! I feel like a king when I get my hands on plumbers roofing lead, dead soft, makes the best balls and minies. By the way, in a broad google search regarding use of minies, I gleaned a lot of info from members of N-SSA. I was impressed by their website too - a couple of great videos there, with a competition line that looks a mile long! And as an old soldier (23 years Army), I was quite taken by how they managed safety with the Controller in the tower and a Safety Officer for each detail.

If you were close to home, I would invite you over for a casting session where you could make a swag of your own, but there's a few miles and a lot of water between us! Enjoy those Lodgewood supplies; it's fortunate you have a reliable supplier who knows what he's on about.

Kindest regards, and thanks for your response,

Pete

View attachment 330933

You're mistaken on one thing, I do NOT rely on commercial sources for minies and have quite the pile of molds from years of testing and competitive shooting. I'll often look through the tables at Nationals for used stuff to see what might be available for another test that might work better than something I already have. I've found a couple good molds for cheap that way. One is a mold I use in working with the Scouts. It's an RCBS steel round ball mold, 2 cavity that I purchased for $20USD. I've made many, many round ball for the Scouts to shoot during the summer camps with that mold.

I've been casting for years. I don't think any N-SSA competitor buys bullets except as a trial before buying a mold or they'll get someone who has the mold they want to try make a batch for testing. That said, Lodgewood has a N-SSA member who supplies their commercial supply and that's why I recommend anyone getting into the rabbit hole of minies buy their test bullets from Lodgewood before buying a mold. One item that does often come up in conversations with N-SSA members is a source for lead. Many of us are quite fortunate to be able to purchase lead from scrap yards and the "gold standard" is X Ray room lead used in the walls of medical offices for shielding. Any time a medical office that has an X Ray machine is remodeled, or altered, that shielding goes into the scrap yard where we purchase it at spot market prices. The other really good source is used medical reactor shielding. Since lead does not absorb radioactivity, it just blocks it, this type is perfectly safe and comes in convenient 30lb bricks that are shaped in a manner to block any possibility of radioactivity escaping past them in a medical reactor. Understand that we're not talking nuclear power, just a small unit for producing isotopes for medical procedures. The next most desirable sources are roof flashing, old plumbing shower pans or telephone transmission line couplings. All of the aforementioned sources of lead are darn near pure and you can't distinguish between them by doing a hardness test.

As for 2 v 3 band PH muskets, they do have different rifling and very different shooting characteristics. The 3 band is, generally speaking, less accurate. One of the reasons N-SSA competitors tend to shy away from 3 bands is they're slower to load and on a windy range, that extra barrel makes for less sure aim. The 2 band has different rifling and, when barrel wall thickness is taken into account, the barrel is stiffer and less prone to zero wandering due to heat build up during a match.

Folks who've never been to Ft Shenandoah, the N-SSA home range in Winchester VA, have a hard time believing how large the range is. In the N-SSA, each competitor in a unit/team match is allotted 3ft. Each unit/team consists of 8 shooters, so one firing position on the range is about 24ft. The range in Winchester can hold up to 70 units/teams in one relay meaning the firing line is about 3/8 mile long. It's controlled from 4 towers and the backstop is a mountain ridge. If you ever get to the US, make it a point to come to a N-SSA National, it's quite the event for black powder shooting.

Here's an old aerial view of the range. Camping areas are on the left, the treeline that separates them is where Back Creek flows and the heavy woods on the right is the mountain ridge backstop. The revolver range is the "crook" at the top of the main range.

This is the Main Control Tower, tower 2. It's positioned at the main range entrance at Position 23.

This is the view from the main control tower (#2) looking left towards the "crook" in the background where the revolver range is located. In the distance, you can see Tower 1 with a banner on it.

This view is from the Main Tower (#2) looking to the right, you can just make out the roof of tower 3 and waaay off in the distance is the end of the firing line and tower 4.

In these photos, you'll see guys holding green flags, they're the safety monitors for each position. The bottom of each staff has a red flag. If there is a safety problem at any time, they will immediately raise the red flag and all firing will halt until the issue is resolved. Here's a view of how this works. I'm doing Time/Scoring for Position 17 and my son is holding the green flag up while watching Position 17 for a safety issue. Note you'll see the same functions at each position all the way into the background. Yeah, I wear a glengarry and it is authentic to the period and there were more than a couple Scots on either side.

Sorry for the thread drift, but we do have more fun with muskets than anyone would believe if they weren't on this range.

 

[aussie pete]

You're mistaken on one thing, I do NOT rely on commercial sources for minies and have quite the pile of molds from years of testing and competitive shooting. I'll often look through the tables at Nationals for used stuff to see what might be available for another test that might work better than something I already have. I've found a couple good molds for cheap that way. One is a mold I use in working with the Scouts. It's an RCBS steel round ball mold, 2 cavity that I purchased for $20USD. I've made many, many round ball for the Scouts to shoot during the summer camps with that mold.

I've been casting for years. I don't think any N-SSA competitor buys bullets except as a trial before buying a mold or they'll get someone who has the mold they want to try make a batch for testing. That said, Lodgewood has a N-SSA member who supplies their commercial supply and that's why I recommend anyone getting into the rabbit hole of minies buy their test bullets from Lodgewood before buying a mold. One item that does often come up in conversations with N-SSA members is a source for lead. Many of us are quite fortunate to be able to purchase lead from scrap yards and the "gold standard" is X Ray room lead used in the walls of medical offices for shielding. Any time a medical office that has an X Ray machine is remodeled, or altered, that shielding goes into the scrap yard where we purchase it at spot market prices. The other really good source is used medical reactor shielding. Since lead does not absorb radioactivity, it just blocks it, this type is perfectly safe and comes in convenient 30lb bricks that are shaped in a manner to block any possibility of radioactivity escaping past them in a medical reactor. Understand that we're not talking nuclear power, just a small unit for producing isotopes for medical procedures. The next most desirable sources are roof flashing, old plumbing shower pans or telephone transmission line couplings. All of the aforementioned sources of lead are darn near pure and you can't distinguish between them by doing a hardness test.

As for 2 v 3 band PH muskets, they do have different rifling and very different shooting characteristics. The 3 band is, generally speaking, less accurate. One of the reasons N-SSA competitors tend to shy away from 3 bands is they're slower to load and on a windy range, that extra barrel makes for less sure aim. The 2 band has different rifling and, when barrel wall thickness is taken into account, the barrel is stiffer and less prone to zero wandering due to heat build up during a match.

Folks who've never been to Ft Shenandoah, the N-SSA home range in Winchester VA, have a hard time believing how large the range is. In the N-SSA, each competitor in a unit/team match is allotted 3ft. Each unit/team consists of 8 shooters, so one firing position on the range is about 24ft. The range in Winchester can hold up to 70 units/teams in one relay meaning the firing line is about 3/8 mile long. It's controlled from 4 towers and the backstop is a mountain ridge. If you ever get to the US, make it a point to come to a N-SSA National, it's quite the event for black powder shooting.

Here's an old aerial view of the range. Camping areas are on the left, the treeline that separates them is where Back Creek flows and the heavy woods on the right is the mountain ridge backstop. The revolver range is the "crook" at the top of the main range.
View attachment 330983


This is the Main Control Tower, tower 2. It's positioned at the main range entrance at Position 23.
View attachment 330986


This is the view from the main control tower (#2) looking left towards the "crook" in the background where the revolver range is located. In the distance, you can see Tower 1 with a banner on it.
View attachment 330984

This view is from the Main Tower (#2) looking to the right, you can just make out the roof of tower 3 and waaay off in the distance is the end of the firing line and tower 4.
View attachment 330985

In these photos, you'll see guys holding green flags, they're the safety monitors for each position. The bottom of each staff has a red flag. If there is a safety problem at any time, they will immediately raise the red flag and all firing will halt until the issue is resolved. Here's a view of how this works. I'm doing Time/Scoring for Position 17 and my son is holding the green flag up while watching Position 17 for a safety issue. Note you'll see the same functions at each position all the way into the background. Yeah, I wear a glengarry and it is authentic to the period and there were more than a couple Scots on either side.
View attachment 330987


Sorry for the thread drift, but we do have more fun with muskets than anyone would believe if they weren't on this range.

Wonderful information. Thanks! Great images too. A sight to see, hear and smell! Our small band would make up just one of your groups.

As an aside, a competition like that must bring some wealth to the community: accommodation, food, fuel etc.

Thanks for sending the info on ...

Cheers, Pete

 

[ADK Bigfoot]

I shot a two-banded Parker Hale Enfield in the N-SSA for twelve years. I cast a .580 Rapine "wadcutter minie" at 315 grains over 35 grains of 3F Goex powder with a super-secret team-brewed lube. It would shoot one hole clusters at 50 yards in rapid fire, and had trouble missing pots at 100. Fit is everything; the correct diameter (mine were sized to .577) and the right lube. A correctly sized minie should (unlubed) slide gently down a clean bore with a hiss and a thump at the breech. Lubed, it took little more than the weight of the ramrod to seat. I have shot fifteen rounds in a steady cadence in rapid fire with no issues loading.

ADK Bigfoot

 

[dave951]

Wonderful information. Thanks! Great images too. A sight to see, hear and smell! Our small band would make up just one of your groups.

As an aside, a competition like that must bring some wealth to the community: accommodation, food, fuel etc.

Thanks for sending the info on ...

Cheers, Pete

During Nationals, it's hard to get a hotel room. The local campground is also busy and the campsites at the fort are active as well. We also did some calculations a while back and powder consumption per Nationals is on the order of about 3 tons. One easy way to get a handle on it is we have upwards of 2500 competing each Nationals and every competitor will burn about 2-3lbs each, especially if they're active in all guns in team and individual competition, and that isn't even considering artillery. Add in the artillery and we're close to 4 tons of powder burned at a National. Next think of the number of minies put into the backstop by that number of shooters and even if we stopped shooting there tomorrow, it will still be coughing up minies for a couple hundred years.