New to flintlocks

[RtWingxtremist]

Well this is my first post,
last week my traditions Hawken .50 cal rifle came in the mail, its my first flintlock so please bear with me as i have some questions.
Today i ATTEMPTED to shoot it for the first time and it didnt go too well, the first 2 shots were hang fires and probably took a good second/second and a half to go off from the time when i pulled the trigger till it shot and the second shot didnt go off at all and after four primes i gave up and pulled it out with the screw attachment thing, it was loaded and still am not sure what went wrong.
anyways first question is
1. Why did it take so long to go off?
I could not find any 4ffffg priming powder so i settled for 3fffg as i read on here it would work fine and used 70 grains of 2ffg in the bore.
2. When i only put priming powder in the pan it will only ignite the pan about half the time or less.
3. What is the correct position for the flint to be in the jaws, and what is a good flint to buy.
4. How much powder should i put in the pan?

Thank you greatly,
Steve

 

[Coot]

Sounds like you may have multiple problems:

The flint should produce a good number of sparks, most of which should be directed towards the pan. Rich Pierce here on the forum makes good flints as are the Tom Fuller English black flints sold by TOW and others. If the lock does not produce good sparks with a good flint, repositioning and or inverting the flint may help. Lastly, if the frizzen is too soft, it will not work even with properly positioned (for that lock) & good quality flints & you will have to have it hardened.

3F will work fine for prime - some prefer 4F as faster but others have used nothing but 3F for years.

An obstructed, misplaced or undersized vent will also create problems.

Moisture and oils in the barrel can contaminate the main charge & delay or prevent firing. If in doubt, an alcohol patch followed by a dry patch before starting a range session can tell you a lot.

Flintlocks require more sorting out than caplocks but can be made very reliable. Start with the simple fixes and work up to the more involved if that proves necessary. Stick with it & the Forum here is full of helpful people if needed.

 

[lonehorseman]

Good advice from Coot. From what you are telling us it sounds like more of a problem with the charge load than the pan charge. Most manufacturers ship their guns with a lot of oil and protectants inside the barrel. BP and petroleum distillates do not mix well. A good cleaning before getting started is always required. After trying lots of different potions, I have settled on 1/3 alcohol, 1/3 peroxide and 1/3 Murphy's Oil Soap. After mixing, store in the brown peroxide bottle. It will last a long time, cleans well, won't harm metal or wood, and you can make a lot of it for only a few dollars. Everyone in my ML club uses it with great results.

Give her a good cleaning, pick the vent, and you should be good to go.

 

[Stony]

1. You may have put too much powder in the pan. If it goes into the touch hole it can act like a fuse.

2.Probably not enough sparks. The flint should be pointing down towards the pan when fired.

3. The flint should be close when on half-cock. When fired, it should not hit the barrel. As suggested Tom Fuller english flints work as do Rich Pierce flints. You might have to "reverse" the flint, i.e. bevel down.

4. About 3-4 grains is all that is needed.

5.Suggestion: Pick your touch hole before you prime the pan. Make sure your pick goes in at least half the distance to the other side of your chamber. You may have to file the pick down so it will fit. Try to shape the part you insert into a triangle. This way if you rotate the pick, you can insure the touch hole is clear (scraped clean) and the priming flash can reach the powder in the barrel. You also create a "pocket" in the charge which will expose more powder to the flash.

6. Suggestion: Check your touch hole that it is big enough. Some folks have enlarged the touch hole using a 1/16 drill. I just did that with my fowler, great improvement. Also try "banking" the prime away from the touch hole, it's the hot gas from the priming that sets off the main charge. "Banking" your prime from the touch hole tends to send more of the hot gas towards the hole.

 

[Zonie]

Welcome to the Forum.

Usually, if you get a flash in the pan and then there is a kind of "whooooooosch BANG" it indicates that the vent hole was covered with excess priming powder.
The priming should be below the vent hole before it ignites. That way a wall of flame will be free to blow thru the vent into the main powder charge.

If you wiped the bore between shots there is a good chance that some of the fouling that was on the bore fell into the breech and got into the vent hole.
If this happens, the fouling will keep the flame from the prime from getting into the new main powder charge.

The flint should be positioned by setting the cock (hammer) at half cock. Then, adjust the flint towards the face of the frizzen.
It should not touch the frizzen but the closer it is when the gun is at half cock, the better it usually works.

Some guns like the bevel on the flint up and other guns like the bevel down (sharp edge up).
Only your gun can say what it really likes.

I primed with 3Fg powder for years and it always worked for me. I did buy some 4F powder after reading that it speeded things up but after using it I could not see any real difference.

The vent hole on almost all factory made guns is too small. I'm not sure why the big factories think it should be so small but they do.

If a 1/16 inch diameter drill won't go thru the vent hole freely, I think the hole is too small.
If you have an electric drill I suggest that you drill the existing vent hole out using the 1/16" drill.

With every increase in size of the vent hole, the possibility of the priming pans flame getting to the main powder charge increases but it comes with a price.
Each size increase reduces the velocity and greatly increases the size of the flame being blown out of the vent when the gun fires.

In my opinion, a 5/64 diameter drill is the largest size that should be used to drill out a vent, and even then, that size should only be used on .50 caliber guns and larger.

 

[Trench]

Got to get this question out of the way: Are you using REAL black poweder like Goex? Or, one of the substitutes like Pyrodex?

 

[matt denison]

Got to get this question out of the way: Are you using REAL black poweder like Goex? Or, one of the substitutes like Pyrodex?

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Flintlocks do not like substitute powders. Use only real black powder.

 

[RtWingxtremist]

Wow I have a lot to learn. lol
All of your guys tips are greatly appreciated so thank you

No I'm not using black powder I'm using Hodgon triple seven pyrodex. I guess I will start out there then and try to get a hold of some real black powder, I see that you can't buy black powder over the internet and all the stores I have been to don't carry any, does anyone know of a store that carries black powder in central Ohio?

 

[Celt5494]

If you can't find real black in a nearby store check with trackofthewolf.com they will have all the powder you need. Might need to get in with a couple of guys to order a case (25lbs in 1 lb cans) of it though. There are other places but I've had good success with TOTW. I would venture to say that switching to black with your flintlock it will end the majority of your ignition woes.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I see that you can't buy black powder over the internet

Yes you can.
www.powderinc.com sells blackpowder via Internet orders (if you are continental US). You do have to pay the hazardous shipping fee, but it's the same fee for up to 50 lbs so the more you buy the less you pay per pound.

 

[Paul R]

TOW has their orders drop-shipped from Powder inc. It may be cheaper to order it direct.
Paul

 

[Trench]

Wow I have a lot to learn. lol
All of your guys tips are greatly appreciated so thank you

No I'm not using black powder I'm using Hodgon triple seven pyrodex. I guess I will start out there then and try to get a hold of some real black powder, I see that you can't buy black powder over the internet and all the stores I have been to don't carry any, does anyone know of a store that carries black powder in central Ohio?

Bingo!! There's your problem. Black powder ignites at a little less than 500 degrees and your triple seven ignites at over 700 degrees. Those brief sparks might not be enough to get it going quickly. In a clean flintlock, you will not notice any perceptible dealy. Notice I said a CLEAN flintlock. If you let your pan get dirty and the touch hole all clogged up, ignition can get slower. The same happens as the flint dulls down.

 

[Zonie]

RtWingxtremist

Yup. That explains everything from flashes in the pan to slow match like ignition to mis-fires.

I know they won't do it but it sure would be nice if they printed on these substitute black powders labels, "NOT FOR FLINTLOCKS". :hmm:

Actually, now that you have your synthetic black powder, don't throw it away quite yet.

After you get some real black powder (I recommend 3Fg) you can still use up your substitute powder.
To do this, first pour about 10 grains (volume) of the REAL black powder down the bore.
Then, add the rest of the main powder charge using the substitute powder.

When you do this, don't forget to subtract 10 from your desired powder load.

For instance, if you want to load a 70 grain powder charge, pour 10 grains of real black powder down the bore and then add 60 grains of the substitute.

Always prime with pure REAL black powder in the pan.

You'll be amazed.

When you've burned up all of your substitute powder don't buy any more of it unless you also have a Percussion rifle. It will work pretty good in those.

 

[rich pierce]

Find a local shooter to get you started. easier than learning online.

 

[ebiggs1]

I am going to disagree with some of the advise you have received. You may choose to do whichever you think is best. :hmm:
First and foremost is to drill the touch hole liner out with a #50 drill. :thumbsup:
The use of a vent pick will be largely eliminated after you enlarge the touch hole.
Even 1/16th is too small for this gun. Don't even try it until you do, even with the real black powder which is a must for the prime. :nono:
But priming powder can and does work well if it covers the touch hole or even trickles into it.
I do not believe in the “fuse” effect. More prime is better than less prime and priming powder is cheap so don't skimp on it. Of coarse the use of reason applies here! :grin:
Another big point is using a real flint not that silly slab of marble that probably came with your rifle. :idunno: Try to get it to slice off the frizzen instead of slamming into it.
Have fun and welcome to the wonderful world of flintlocks. :wink:

 

[RtWingxtremist]

Update, I ended up drilling the vent hole out with a 1/16 inch drill bit as it was quite a bit smaller than the bit as suggested above.
I've been calling around trying to find a place that carries black powder for I don't want to have to buy 5 pounds or more of it over the internet, so far I have had no success but will hopefully find some so I can shoot this weekend, but until then I am kinda stuck I will post my results if I am able to shoot
thank you all for the help and comments

 

[Larry Pletcher]

R. Wing,
If we knew where you are, maybe you're close enough to get BP from a forum member. Or, we might know of a ML club near you who might see that you got a pound.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Zonie]

When you are calling around remember, the real black powder a gun store has must be locked up by them.

They cannot have it sitting on a shelf like regular powder because of Federal regulations.

Because it is locked up, often the regular employees don't even know the store has it so be sure to ask for the owner or the manager to talk to.

 

[RtWingxtremist]

I'm willing to drive anywhere within an hour of Columbus Ohio to get it.
And thanks Zonie I didn't realize that it had to be behind the counter

 

[msuspartan]

Check the Log Cabin Shop in Lodi Ohio, they are within an hours drive I think. And they are great people to deal with. Take your rifle there with you for questions and answers.

Cheers, DonK