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New to ML, What do I need?

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kthompson204

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I just purchased my first muzzle loader from the Possible Shop. I got a ST. LOUIS HAWKEN RIFLE KIT made by Traditions. I have many firearms, but the muzzle loader is uncharted territory for me. I am excited to build and shoot my newest addition. I am sure this question has been asked by almost every newby, so here it is again. What accesories will I need, patches, powder measurer...etc., and which are best? A link to the answer will be fine because I'm sure you guys get sick of this question. Thanks
 
I got my first muzzle loader, a .50 Hawken, a few months ago. I guess that qualifies me to answer a couple of your questions.
My rifle was not a kit, but while I waited for it to arrive, I ordered a number of accessories from Track of the Wolf.
My thoughts were that once I had an opportunity to shoot it, that I had better have everything I needed to clean it properly. As you probably know, black powder and it's substitutes when fired, both leave corrosive deposits.
My rifle when it arrived had a strong synthetic rod with an integral cleaning jag and bullet puller. I ended up duplicating those items.
I ordered:
.490 bullet mould (I already cast)
10 shot capper (capping tool)
Nipple wrench
Variable powder measure
Pouring spout for the Goex powder cans.

I also got a bore mop and a brass brush, but I have not found a use for them yet. I have been able to clean my rifle with the existing cleaning jag and cotton rags that I cut up for the purpose.
After firing the rifle, be sure to be meticulous about cleaning, - lots of good advice here.

I made my own patches and lube. Very simple and cheap.
Your rifle will take #11 percussion caps.
 
Since you posted this in the caplock section, I'm assuming this is a capper. You are not limited to real BP, as the substitutes should work, but many here (including me) prefer the real thing. I have a CVA St. Louis Hawken, which should be the same rifle as you have. Mine came with a cleaning jag on the ram rod, but a range rod is easier to use at the range, so may be nice to have, though not absolutely necessary. As to projectiles, some prefer Round Balls, some prefer conicals, I use the RBs. Patches will depend on what your rifle's bore size, the size of your RBs, how tight you want your load, and just what your rifle likes--so it's hard to give you a measurement. Many here use pillow ticking from fabric stores or even walmart, and I only have one rifle that wont shoot with it cause it's too tight, the others all seem to love it. As to a measure, I would say to get something adjustable to start with until you figure out what your gun wants to be fed. You can make a fixed measure later. As far as cleaning solvents go, I use tap water with a bit of dish soap thrown in, make sure the gun is clean, then dry it with denatured alcohol (if i have it) and oil it up. You will also want a worm which is just a attachment for your ram rod with one or two prongs sticking out, just in case you get a patch stuck in the bore. Also you will want a ball puller--basically a screw that attaches to your ram rod so you can pull the ball back out of your gun WHEN you forget to put powder under it. I know it sounds like a dumb mistake, but many of us here have done it, and those who haven't will sooner or later. You will also need some kind of lube for your patches. You will be told all kinds of different lubes people here use, ranging from spit to all sorts of mixes. Try any and all of them and you will eventually find one you like.

Being as you said you got a kit, and I hope this isnt out of line, do me a favor and dont make the same mistake I made when i first got mine. I was in too much of a hurry to go shoot it to take care in putting it together, and the accuracy, looks, and everything else showed it. I have since rebuilt the gun and it has served me very well since I took care of it. Initially, it had me wondering if this ML thing was a mistake, but I stuck with it and finally figured out what my gun likes. Almost forgot, if your gun came with the same "adjustable" sight mine came with, replace it with a proper fixed sight. The way mine was there was nothing I could do to get it locked in place and keep it stationary. At first, my gun wouldn't stay on a 55gal drum at 50yds, and now it will hold 3-4" at 100yds most days, and sometimes better. All it needed was a little care in building it, and better sights than it came with. Just take your time to do things right, read previous posts, and dont be shy about asking questions. These guys here put up with me when I first found this place so trust me when I say they have a lot of patience and knowledge.
 
I would start simple with easy to get stuff from your local gun shop, Bass Pro or Cabela's. Try to get GOEX if you can but Pyrodex works as well.
If you are familiar with guns you know what you need to “hand load”, there just isn't any brass case involved, each time you load a muzzle loader.
A place to start? 50 grs GOEX 2f or 3f, a cap, pillow ticking pre-lubed patch and Hornady round ball.
A short starter and range rod is nice and just plain water for cleaning.
 
You said it was a Traditions kit. The word Traditions turned off a lot of responses. Most feel that Traditions makes a low line muzzle loader.

However having said that I will say this is the same kit I built as my first rifle. I will say this about the Traditions, "you do your part and it will do it's part"!

One of the first thing you are going to want to do is replace the sights. I don't know why they even bother to send those plastic sights. Do your research and you will be able to find replacements that will fit to replace the plastic ones with real black metal sights. I made my front one but you can replace it too. I bought the replacements made by Marbles, from Midway USA. But you can get them from several sources. The rear is a screw in replacement that has three different sized apertures.
One of them seems to work well with my older eyes now days. It is a circle about 1/8" diameter with a slot at the top. Kind of like a peep withe a V.

If you are as clueless as myself about what you are getting into remember this is a kit. It may not go together right out of the box. Most of the inleting is done, but as on mine (not 100% properly). You will have to read the tutorials on building and then you can figure out what is wrong with the factory inleting! I had to inlet the hooked breach a little deeper to get the proper line up on the hammer and nipple.

One piece of advice that I didn't know at the time if you decide to brown. I used Casey's Plum Brown and even though I thought I had cleaned the barrel well it took several tries to get a brown I was satisfied with. Do yourself a big favor and clean the inside of the barrel with brake cleaner and then solvent and finally with alcohol and wipe clean and I mean clean. Then clean the outside before doing the brown. The heating step will bring out any oils that are still present if they are not totally cleaned away!
Just take it slow and ask questions. The only dumb questions is the one you didn't ask and then you screwed up something.
You will probably want to replace the ramrod but you can do this at a later date.

I am assuming that it is percussion. You will need in no particular order, powder or a black powder sub,powder measure, round balls or some kind of a bullet, patch material, a short starter, capper. I made a tool similar to a vent pick used on a flintlock. It comes in handy for clearing nipples and such.
I first started with a sub instead of black powder and no matter what I did I could not get good consistency. But after about 100 shots and a lot of frustration I began to get closer. I found some real black and now shoot 3fGEOX and I have never looked back. I also shoot a round ball with approximately .18 patch from Wallyworld pillowticking. I usually shoot a .490 ball but I originally bought some .495 balls and on an unfouled barrel I can hand walk one down the barrel. With the same .18 patch. You do definitely want to dry ball with this combo as it would be hard to pull. The 495. ball and .18 patch makes a good combo for hunting as the velocity increases quite a bit with the tighter fit and the same amount of powder as the .490 ball combo.
You will need a worm, ball puller, cleaning jag and I am sure I may have forgotten something right off the top of my head. You will as you learn figure out what you need and what you don't need.

After I switched to real BP I began to get real serious with sighting in the rifle. Always shoot from a rest at given yardage when you start this process.
Only change one thing at a time when you start this process and then shoot at least five or more shots to prove out what the change made!
In other words if you change the ticking you do five shots or more to see what the consistency of the change is. For each time you change the amount of powder. Whether you wipe or not, the type or kind or amount of lube, etc. etc. etc.
One thing you will find is the BP can be temperamental when trying to find that sweet spot. But once you can find that right load with the right patch you can be able to duplicate the results time and time again. That is exactly what I meant when if you do your part the Traditions rifle will do its part. Once I got mine dialed in after a 100 plus shots. I can consistently shoot about a 3 inch group every time. It might even be tighter at times so that leads me to believe that the strays are all on my back.

Welcome to the addiction. Once you get it dialed in you will throw away all those new fangled ones.
Just remember changing one thing and that includes your cleaning process can change the rifles accuracy. So if you start to develop a problem after you get it dialed in start with the thought of, "what have I done different"?

Wow this looks like one of Paul's long posts. :shocked2: I guess I had more to say than I thought! :haha:

Here are some pics of mine!
000_0567.jpg


000_0627.jpg


Here is that front site I made for mine.
000_0706.jpg
 
Go to trackofthewolf.com and look at their guns for sale section (they currently have a TC Hawken)and scroll down to see the list of accessories they suggest. You will eventually need most of these things (spare nipple, ball puller,patch puller etc, etc). The number one thing I would suggest is that you start a separate kit/box with just the accessories you need to shoot and clean your ML. Take it with you whenever you go to shoot. I bought my first with two friends and I am the only one left shooting a trad muzzleloader. In retrospect the biggest pitfall (including for myself) was the temptation to treat the gun like a modern firearm. That is, getting it just clean enough, then two seasons later (unlike modern guns) the thing hang fires or is inaccurate and at that point many people hang it on the wall or in the closet for good. Get the right tools and have your cleaning steps planned in advance so that is more of a pleasure than a chore to clean. You'll thank yourself later. And buy or make tons of patches and don't spare them.

One other very nice to have item and a great safety tool is a CO2 discharger. Well worth the money IMO if you ever accidentally load without a charge or get one stuck halfway down the barrel.
 
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I built the same kiy for my son-in-law. One thing I saw a few times, but highly recommend is a good range rod. I've used one like this for over 30 years: http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_99_320&products_id=1282 . I've heard many complaints about the quality of the factory nipples. My son-in-law's broke in half on the second shot. I replaced his nipple with a Spitfire nipple that solved that problem: http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_238_566_570_575&products_id=5868 . Most factory ram rods are junk. If the grains have any run out, it could break during loading. I've replaced all my rods with unbreakable one like this: http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/item.asp?item=18075 . I will say that the Traditions Hawkens is a straight shooter :thumbsup:
 
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You'll need the basics:
short starter
variable powder measure
patches.. pre-lubed or not
firing caps ... no.11)
cleaning jag
worm... to pull lost patches out of the barrel
ball puller ..to pull dry balls
cleaning patches
brass brush.. to run up and down the barrel prior to cleaning
Goex powder... or substitutes
a Box to put it all your stuff in..

The BEST advice I can give is this:
MAKE sure you clean your gun after shooting..even if you only shoot it one time. The rule of thumb I go by is this : NEVER LET THE SUN SET ON A DIRTY BARREL.
This is how I clean my barrel after removing it from the stock. ( assuming you have a halfstock that will allow for removal)
FIRST, I screw the brass brush ( for your caliber of rifle..it needs to be tight) on the threaded ram rod end, I run that up and down the barrel several times, that action loosens up the crud or " fouling", then I take the brass brush off and replace it with the cleaning jag.I then get a small pan ( large enough that you can totally submerge your nipple end of the breech in the water) and put a couple of squirts of Dawn Dish Soap in the pan.. then I fill the pan with hot water out of the tap.. Mix the water and soap together. Set your breech end of the barrel in the water and grab your Ram rod with your jag attachment already on. Grab a cleaning patch and set it over the open end of the barrel, push the cleaning patch down the barrel with your cleaning jag end of your ram rod. The jag has ridges on it or knurls and won't allow the patch to slip off while in the barrel. Run the cleaning patch up and down several times while your breech is in the water and you'll ( at least you should) notice a suction, this suction will pull the water out of the end of the barrel, thereby cleaning the entire barrel. I do this untill I get the water to come clean and then rinse the barrel with clean cool water and then dry it out, either by using warm air, or running an alcohol patch through the barrel. After the barrel is dry, oil it up inside and out really well. IF you oil the inside of the barrel a little too much you'll have to run a patch with brake cleaner through your barrel before firing.
I know you didn't ask how to clean, but you being new to the sport I figured I would offer my advice.Others may have differnt ways of cleaning..but we all agree on one thing..CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN your barrel!..lol

You can REALLY get involved in this sport..or hobby if you will..
I make alot of my own stuff and what I can't make I buy (or trade)from members on here.
Such as,
fire starting kit
ball board
antler powder measure
antler short start
tins to put small items in
ball pouch
brass capper
I apologize for being so windy! :redface:
 
50cal.cliff said:
You said it was a Traditions kit. The word Traditions turned off a lot of responses. Most feel that Traditions makes a low line muzzle loader.
WOW! The guy asks about accessories and you tell him he has a lousy gun. Way to welcome the guy to the forum. :shake:

I see the others have listed possible accessories, so I won't repeat them.
 
I had a feeling I came to the right place for advise. About 5 years ago I told myself I only needed one "fun" shooter, a M1 garand. After watching many episodes of Hicock45 on youtube and 20+ battle proven rifles later (so I'm familiar with dirty,corrosive ammo), I thought a ML would be a fun and very different adventure in shooting (not to mention the history). I want to thank everyone for your advise. I didn't want to get to the range and break the nipple on my first shot with no replacement all because I didn't do my homework. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions, but for now, I have a good list of stuff I need (thanks to your help) I'm off to Bass Pro Shop!
 
A very large washcloth and lots of soap to try and wipe the smile off your face. Loves me the BP! you will too. :grin:
 
You got the right answer(s), that's for sure, just one word of caution..., the only sport with almost as many gadgets as golf is shooting, and muzzleloading is no exception. So after you buy the basics, then go shooting, and if you can find a place where other black powder shooters are shooting, see what they use, and ask them why they use one tool or gadget over another. Ask them if they bought it or made it, and ask to try the tool(s) if you can. Then decide what works for you, and save your money. One very cool aspect of this hobby is making a tool yourself that works.

LD
 
Jack Wilson said:
50cal.cliff said:
You said it was a Traditions kit. The word Traditions turned off a lot of responses. Most feel that Traditions makes a low line muzzle loader.
WOW! The guy asks about accessories and you tell him he has a lousy gun. Way to welcome the guy to the forum. :shake:

I see the others have listed possible accessories, so I won't repeat them.

Hey Jack go back and read my post! I told him that there were a lot of snobs out there that look down there nose at Traditions. Then I tried to relate some of my experiences with the kit.
It didn't bother me when I built it and don't bother me now. I will put the gun and me up against anyone on a good day!
It was and still is the only .50 cal I own. I do have a Lyman GPR .54 and the traditions don't shoot no less than or better than it!
So I would have to sum it up in this way the Traditions rifle is on the lower end of the purchase range, and it does have a few problems but nothing that can't be worked out. But the barrel quality is as good as most out there.
All this allows folks to get their feet wet and then decide whether to go for something more expensive. Like I said, "you do your part and the gun will do its! :thumbsup: So anybody that said Traditions was a lousy gun was someone besides myself Jack! :wink:
 
kThe one thing not mentioned yet. When you finish shooting you are going to have dirty hands and the drive home will get the steering wheel dirty and the wife will have a fit. The answer is get a small bottle of hydrogen Peroxide this is not for the gun it's to wash your hands with. Just wash and then wipe dry with a raq or towel and they will be clean and any small cuts will be taken care also. Welcome to a great sport.
Fox
 
:idunno: WARNING WARNING Black powder is adictive. You will need an understanding wife. Most women unless they are also addicted will not like the smell of black powder.So you will need a place where you can clean your rifle and your clothes outside of her range of smell. I have a workshop that I use. My nephew's wife makes him and his boys "hose off" outside before thay come into the house. Not a nice thing in Ohio in December and Janurary. :idunno:
 
Looks like you have most of the stuff listed you will need, I will add a vote to the use of real BP for the best results, and to pracitce changing one elemet at a time and taking good notes and use a good solid bench rest to judge the gun and loads not your skill at present and you will have the balls on top of each other in no time, start at 25 yds then move out to 50 and so forth your gun should be sufficient to get acceptable groups for trail walks or hunting, enjoy the journey.As the forum gives various opinons on one thing or another a pattern will emerge that will aid you in seperating the wheat from the chaff, choose wisely my friend.
 
looks like the extra stuff you'll need has been covered. Granted I am not an expert. Here is the way I clean my rifle. Remove the barrel from the stock. remove the nipple and drum screw. hot water and auto body soap. put the nipple end of barrel in plastic bucket of soap and water, swab up and down a few times, change soap and water, do the same and continue until water comes out clear. empty bucket, set nipple end of barrel in bucket, wrap a rag around top of barrel and hold barrel at this location with channel locks. pour boiling hot water from tea kettle down barrel to rinse. remove barrel from bucket. the heat from the hot water will dry the barrel very quickly, wipe with paper towel. swab bore, then swab again with patch covered with bore butter, oil outside of barrel with oil. this is how I clean mine, and I never have a problem with corrosion or rust. hope this helps, almost forgot, put a little bore butter and nipple and drum screw thread and reinstall.
 
just in case you haven't noticed something yet, there are so many slight variations to accomplish the same thing that it can be almost confusing at first. Dont let that get to you. Just try different methods and you will figure out what you like and what you dont. One of the great things about this place is that the members are always willing to help and share information so we are all always learning from each other--even if some of us have a much longer way to go than some of the more experienced shooters. Some of the variations are due to location and what's available, some due to climate, and much due to just plain individual preference. And the beauty is that every method works. Some slightly better at times than others, but that's what keeps us all trying new things and learning.
 
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