Newb question about powder

[zerosprk]

Hi everyone,
I'm brand new to this site and equally brand new to traditional muzzleloading and muzzleloaders. I have shot/hunted since I was a kid - so a long time. I have hunted with an inline muzzleloader once and that was about 20 years ago. I'm about to be the proud new owner of a fast-twist (1 in 24") .50 Hawken and a slow twist (1 in 60ish") TVM flintlock. What powder granulation would you all suggest for these two rifles? I expect to shoot conicals in the Hawken and PBRs in the flintlock. I have been trying to educate myself on this stuff. In that pursuit I have come across several instances of contridactory information. I've found that 2F is recommended for .50 and up, 3F works well in both and 2F and 3F are interchangable so it really doesn't matter. As a longtime reloader in the smokeless powder world, the idea of "the powder you use really doesn't matter" causes my brow to forrow just a bit. I like to keep things as simple as possible so if I could shoot the same powder out of both guns, thats better IMHO. That said and given my intended use, can you all give me your thoughts on what you would start with if you were me. This is a great site and I enjoy reading about what folks use and why.

 

[Squatch84]

I don't know if my thinking is correct here but I'll go out on a limb and say 3F in both, I use 3F in my flint. I'm guessing the 1 in 24" is a shorter barrel so it might do well with 3F since it does burn faster. Get some of each and experiment a bit. That's half the fun.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[brewer12345]

You could try both. Both are commonly used in 50 cal rifles and it might be worth trying both to see if you get better accuracy.

 

[Ontario47]

3F is great in a PRB flintlock for target loads( (lighter loads) in part because it works well for prime also. 2F is considered better (by some) for heavier bullets (conicals) in larger calibers (.50 and larger) . 3f in larger conicals and heavier loads kicks harder than 2f and may not be as accurate. Follow the owners manual to start. For substitute (for black) powders pay attention to manufacturer's recommendations.

 

[tnlonghunter]

Disclaimer: correct me if I'm wrong here, but....

I'm not mistaken, modern smokeless powders are all somewhat different chemical compositions - maybe not drastically different, but enough different that they are not as interchangeable as black powder. Black powder is pretty much all the same chemical make-up. Where it differs is the fineness of the granulation, the nature of the manufacturer's process, and the type of charcoal used. For example Swiss tends to be the most high-grade; it'll burn cleaner and often with more power-per-equal charge than others (GOEX Old Eynsford seems to be next in line, followed by GOEX standard). But in the end, they're all all relatively the same basic mixture of charcoal, sulfur, and potassium nitrate.

The finer the granulation, I think the faster it burns (explodes), and that has an effect on what charge size you need. Typically, you'll use about 15% less for a 3f charge than an equal 2f charge. The 3f will have a sharper report/recoil. I pretty much use 3f in everything, because it's easier for me. My .54 might shoot a little better with 2f, but I'm not gonna worry too much.

The only place where you're real likely to run into serious flak is if you try to use 4f as a main charge. It's granularity is very fine (i.e., fast and sharp), and it is intended only for use as a priming powder in flintlocks. I've read of people using it for the main charge in small calibers (.36 and below), but I never have. In reality, you can skip the 4f and just use the same powder (2f or 3f, whatever your gun prefers) for both main charge and priming, and I doubt you'd ever notice much difference. That seems to have been the way the old-timers did it back in the day.

 

[dave951]

Things are different in the world of black powder.

You can use either 2 or 3f. Try both and look for best accuracy. Use only real black powder. Just like grades of gasoline, same with black powder. Standard Goex is like regular, Old E like mid grade, and Swiss is like premium. But even then, you need to experiment to find the best for your gun. That’s part of the fun of black powder.

 

[Sparkitoff]

Having rifles with both the 1:24 ROT and a 1:66 ROT, I use 3F in both. I experimented with one and 3F produced the most accuracy. The other, I got groups that were everything I needed without extensive experimenting so I stuck with it. Keep it simple.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The first consideration to consider about powders for your rifles would be your flint lock. Flint locks work best using real black powder. So, I suggest getting real black powder such as GOEX in 3fg granulation. Both 2fg and 3fg will be fine for the main charge, but the 3fg can also work satisfactorily as a pan powder, thus no need for 4f powder for the pan. The 3fg powder will be a bit more energetic than the 2fg requiring less 3fg for the same velocity in 2fg. There are slight differences in performance between brands such as GOEX, Olde Eynsford (by GOEX), Scheutzen, Swiss or Graf's (by GOEX). Olde Eynsford and Swiss are the most energetic and clean burning.

While you can use substitute black powders in your percussion lock, I believe in keeping it simple and use the same black powder in both rifles.

 

[N.Y. Yankee]

If you want to buy only one powder, get 3Fg, that way you can shoot both guns AND use it to prime the flinter. If you don't mind buying 2 different powders, Use 2Fg in the .50 with the conical bullets and 3Fg in the flint. If you are wondering about loads, remember the 3Fg burns faster than 2Fg so load a bit less than 2Fg, like 10 percent. Go with the gun maker's recommendations whenever possible. Try to get the literature for the gun if it is available and use it as a guide. Be sure to clean and oil the guns as soon as you can after shooting.

 

[Musketeer]

Another vote for 3f. You will quickly find as you sink inevitably deeper into the madness and addiction....uh, I mean "hobby"....of muzzleloading that experimentation is a huge part of the experience, so you will almost certainly find yourself trying out different powders, projectiles, etc., but to keep things simple at the start you can't go wrong with 3f for the 2 guns you currently have.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The first consideration to consider about powders for your rifles would be your flint lock. Flint locks work best using real black powder. So, I suggest getting real black powder such as GOEX in 3fg granulation. Both 2fg and 3fg will be fine for the main charge, but the 3fg can also work satisfactorily as a pan powder, thus no need for 4f powder for the pan. The 3fg powder will be a bit more energetic than the 2fg requiring less 3fg for the same velocity in 2fg. ...
While you can use substitute black powders in your percussion lock, I believe in keeping it simple and use the same black powder in both rifles.

LD

 

[Grenadier1758]

Did I forget to emphasize that black powder is effectively measured by volume and @zerosprk should also be looking for a volume measure to measure from 30 grains to 120 grains. The volume measures are fairly closely calibrated to cast 2fg black powder to the same scale weight. Black powder load quantity can tolerate the tolerance spread in the use of a volume measure.

Substitute powders are less dense and must be measured by volume for use in a muzzle loading firearm.

 

[zerosprk]

Everyone,

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question. I especially appreciated the recalibration regarding the meaning of the numbers (xF) associated with black powder. I'm going to try both 2F and 3F in both rifles and see what kind of accuracy I can squeeze out of each. The experimentation will be fun - that's why I reload in the smokeless world. For the past several years most of my hunting has consisted of peering at critters through what some would consider a telescope and tipping them over waaay out there. We'll see how well my 60+ year old eyes handle iron sights. I've hunted elk exclusively with my bow for about the last 20 years. So getting close isn't the issue - I can do that. I suspect that it's going to be seeing the rear sight, front sight and target all at the same time that is going to my my hurdle. I may have to consentrate on only two at a time - rear sight/front sight, then front sight/target and then trigger press/boom! Regardless, I'm planning on the journey being a hoot! Thanks again and I'm sure this won't be the only "newb" question I'll post. Thanks again and take care!

 

[Britsmoothy]

I'm keeping a low profile in this topic but I will add if I had the choice then it would be 3f.
I will just add though that I don't reduce the charge of a finer grade for safety sake. No, rather I increase the courser granulations to make it bloody useful!!

 

[Musketeer]

I'm keeping a low profile in this topic...

Your affinity for finer grade powder precedes you.

 

[hanshi]

I use 3F in everything. But I used both interchangeably in the past and it worked out fine. Test and see or either just go 3F and don't look back.

 

[N.Y. Yankee]

I'm keeping a low profile in this topic but I will add if I had the choice then it would be 3f.
I will just add though that I don't reduce the charge of a finer grade for safety sake. No, rather I increase the courser granulations to make it bloody useful!!

So, if a little is good, alot is better?

 

[Grenadier1758]

A lot is not necessarily better. What you want is just right. It's called load development.

 

[Musketeer]

So, if a little is good, alot is better?

Of course. *grunting*

 

[brewer12345]

Zerosprk, if you find you are having trouble seeing sights, try a peep sight. I have vision issues and they are the bee's knees.