Newbie but please still read.

[Wildpony]

Ok since yall dont have a "newbie specific section" I am going to post my question here.

I will be leaving the country for a few months and plan to buy myself my first muzzleloader upon my return.

I cant decide what to get though. I think the flintlock rifles are more elegent and gracefull looking, but I also like the reliability of the percussion ignition system. Also I cant decide on style. I like both the Hawken profile and the Kentucky rifle design but I have no idea which is most inherently accurate or practically shootable.

Im not wanting to get anything extravegant and will probably go pretty economical for my first front stuffer. But I would still appreciate your advice to a newbie.

 

[WV MZL HUNTER]

:hmm: Boy you are going to get a lot of different answers on this one. My choice for a starter would be a simple T/C or Lymans half stock gun. Easy to clean and mot a bad price.
But I would like a Flinter like you, but to start it takes a little more work.
GOOD LUCK NO MATTER WHAT YOU GO WITH. :hatsoff:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Welcome!

We don't have a "newbie" section because we are ALL still learning. (Or kidding ourselves).

First hurdle is, unfortunately, $bucks$.

A good flintlock is pretty reliable, but a poorly designed, not necessarily cheap, one is a misery. For that reason I'd say your chances of getting 100% ignition are better with a percussion.

I shoot both. I like both. If I had to only one I would go flintlock, hands down, because if I was in it for efficiency I would use a centerfire. I'm in it for the nostalgia and the challenge. If you are the type who cannot bear to lose, and getting a "Psssst" instead of a "Bang!" would lead you to break the gun over a rock, then you might be happier with a percussion. There is a steeper learning curve with a flinter. But, we're standing by here to help you.

As far as accuracy and shooting practicality it is a toss-up. The sight radius on a long barreled Pennsylvania rifle is a help with iron sights. Most folks coming off modern guns find the shorter plains rifles more "handy". Here again, a well made longrifle with a swamped barrel feels lighter than it is, but that adds $150 to $200 to the cost. I shoot a percussion more accurately. There, I've said it. The slight delay of a flintlock occasionally catches me when shooting offhand. Not enough to make me throw the rifle in the creek, but I can look at the targets and see it, so it just is. Maybe 15% less, offhand, in my hands. I'm still working on it, though. :haha: Off a rest it's too close to call.

The "National Standard" first rifles are the T/C Hawken and Renegade lines, and the Lyman Great Plains Rifle - all variations of the shorter Hawken style. Probably 90% of us here started with one of these.

Poke around at the Early Rustic Arms website, too. For a little more than a "production" rifle you get something more "historic", if you're interested.

 

[Wildpony]

I forgot to mention caliber.

Im thinking .50 but am open to arguements for the .54

Realy Im just looking for a good starting point.

I do like the look of the Lyman Great Planes Rifle.

Also. Dont the TC rifles have a little bit faster rate of twist in an attempt to make them shootable with connacles? I realy only want to shoot PRBs so that doesnt matter to me but would that extra speed of twist cause accuracy problems with the roundballs?

 

[Stumpkiller]

I like the .54 for whitetail. I like the .50 for whitetail, too. :haha: For targets, it don't matter.

The .54 can be loaded down and do everything the .50 can, or, loaded full, it hits with a 27% heavier ball and buys you that much more energy for those "RATS" shots that are a bit marginal. If the Gods shine and you get a chance for elk or bear you're also better off with the .54.

Easier to see to load and fish the balls out of a bag with cold, numb fingers, too. :grin:

 

[WV MZL HUNTER]

A 1:48 twist is what T/C says it will shoot round balls or maxi ball. You can get round ball barrels from T/C in 1:66 twist from Foxridge, T/C custom shop. The faster the twist most use conicals or sabots, the slower the twist most use round balls. You will get more information from others here and it will all be good. Green mountain barrels are like very much and you can get them for T/C guns in a lot of different twist.
For round ball a 1:72 twist is good.
GOOD LUCK hope I help some.

 

[Stumpkiller]

The twist: the 1:48 can be convinced to shoot round balls very well for as far as the iron sights allow. I have two. One (.54 Renegade) shoots anything as long as I keep the charge to 90 gr or less, and the other (.50 New Englander) gave me FITS before I finally found the right load. Now it shoots 1" at 50 yards from a standing position on demand. That's better than I do with most of my centerfire rifles.

It depends on the individual rifle. Some just don't digest round balls or the owner hasn't found the right diameter/patch thickness/lube & lube amount to make it work. It takes hours at the range, or you stumble on it from shot #1

Something over 1:60" is a better bet, all else being equal.

 

[loophole]

You haven't told us what you plan to do with the rifle, which is a very important consideration. You haven't told us whether you are looking to build a rifle, have one built, or buy a production gun. These things raise different issues. There are some constants--Assuming you get a good gun, there is no practical difference between caplocks and flinters in terms of reliability or accuracy. Flintlocks require more care and attention, but if you are willing to learn and have an experienced teacher, they make up for it by being much more sophisticated and exotic.
Likewise, the style of gun you choose is purely a matter of taste and preference unless you plan to do reenacting and have to conform to a particular time period and location. An authentic Hawken is a big, large calibre gun (although they built small "squirrel rifles", too) whereas the term "Kentucky" encompasses small calibre, light and handy guns as well as large calibres with imposing demensions.
Because originals were made mostly by hand, the design does not lend itself to factory mass production. The result is that there is no mass produced gun which has the same lines, balance, looks and feel of an original. Some folks are happy as a clam with a factory gun such as the TC or the Lyman GPR, others are willing to pay considerably more money for a hand-made rifle.
You pays your money and you makes your choice.
If you ask me to choose a gun for a new shooter who actually wants to become profecient with it and use it for hunting and/or target shooting, and wants something he can be proud to own, I'd say a hand-made Hawken replica, full stock, flint, 54 calibre with a tapered 34" barrel 1" at the breech and 7/8" at the muzzle, Rice barrel, L&R Ashmore lock, components from Don Stith. It will be a big gun but very well balanced and handy, not too heavy to carry hunting or shoot offfhand, but heavy enough to soak up the recoil from heavy charges. Built right it is completly authentic, but much simpler and cheaper to build or have built than most proper "Kentucky" rifles.
Opinions are relatively easy to come by around here.

 

[patch knife]

I guess I'll throw in my two cents :grin: . For your first muzzle loader , I would suggest a percussion , while you learn the fundementals of muzzleloading , shooting the percussion gun , you can save up your money for a GOOD flintlock . Like the others have said , a cheap flintlock can be frustrating , especially for a newbie . As you may already know , there is plenty of info about flintlocks , here on the ML Forum , learn all you can before you rush out and buy something you may not be happy with . :hatsoff:

 

[CrackStock]

I find myself in agreement with Loophole here.

To give you a good answer, we must know a bit about your interests and intended uses.

Re-enacting? Time, location and person?

Target? What type and time? Check for competition rules.

Hunting? Animal type and method of hunt?

If you are just wanting a pretty gun to shoot, you should get copies of some books to study:

15 Years in the Hawken Load,
Hawken, the Mountain Man's choice,
The Plains Rifle,
The Kentucky Rifle,
Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age

will all give you information and pictures so that you can drool for a long time and come to some opinions as to your personal tastes.

Some of these are quite expensive, so you might check your library. Others should be available and you might want to own them.

If you can give us a bit more info, we can give you more focused suggestions.

CS

 

[DrTimboone]

Another two cents worth. For my first ML I bought a Pedersoli .50 cal Kentucky flint. Shoots accurate and reliable

 

[riarcher]

This is only an opinion, but you were asking "opinions", and this is mine (not to offend anyone, just my ideas on the subject).
IF, I selected a Kentucky, I'd most likely go with a flinter.
If a Hawkin, probably a cap lock.
Why? I just think they look better that way (no other reason).
Now on flint vs. Cap; I'd say to start out, perhaps a cap would be my first choice. Why? Less to get into trouble with. You end up not being overly concerned about ignition and can pay attention to the details involved with proper loading, understanding what load works (and maybe a bit of why), good cleaning, and if hunting,,, confidence (always a good attribute). I'd suggest a 1 in 66 (ish) twist so you can load low and work up as you gain "the feel".
When I started (30 some yrs. ago) I was infatuated with the Kentucky Flinter and made it my first. I'm now convinced it was a bad move (for me) on my part. Just too many variables all at once from centerfire and shotguns (world of difference). I've since traveled the gammot from one to anouther, long/short, large/small etc.
As mentioned (sort of) the gun is basicly a tool to do a job. finding what works and pleases you is very much a personal choice, but I think if I had to do it over again I'd start with a "capper".

PS, Presently, I'm shooting a single barrel shotgun called a "Second Model Brown Bess" and love it. If I had started with it,,, I'd probably would have been frustrated to death several times over.

 

[AZ-Robert]

Also. Dont the TC rifles have a little bit faster rate of twist in an attempt to make them shootable with connacles? I realy only want to shoot PRBs so that doesnt matter to me but would that extra speed of twist cause accuracy problems with the roundballs?

Well, if you go the TC or Lyman GPR route, bear in mind that replacement barrels can be had for both of those, giving you the ability to change caliber as well as twist rates by just swapping out the barrels.

 

[scott fellows]

depending on the game laws in your state and whether or not you would like to shoot small game as well find a nice smoothbore. they are good for large game and small game not to mention just a blast to shoot.
pieman
:thumbsup:

 

[pathfinderifh]

PS, Presently, I'm shooting a single barrel shotgun called a "Second Model Brown Bess" and love it. If I had started with it,,, I'd probably would have been frustrated to death several times over.

Riarcher,I did start with a BrownBess all those years ago and because I didn't know better, I had a ball with that firearm.I'm now building another one from TRS parts[1728 model]Again, can't wait till it's done to re-live those good times gone by :winking: Pathfinder

 

[Wildpony]

You guys are right, I did forget to state my intended purposes for this prospective rifle.

So here you go.
I am not going to be reenacting with this rifle.
I will be hunting with this rifle if I become a good enough shot.
I will be hunting in West Texas, for white tail deer.
I will be target shooting with this rifle.
I will be taking it to black powder shoots around Abilene if I am able to find a shooting group.

I have hunded deer with modern rifle and bow and have slowly but surely started to add more and more primitive equipment on my hunting excoursions.

Moved from huntin in blinds to hunting on foot or sitting at the base of a tree near a field or stream etc. I stoped using cammo as much unless it was the only warm piece of clothing I had on a cold day. Started wearing flannel shirts and blue jeans the majority of the time. I started hunting some with a 30-30 and even a couple of hand cannons. went from using super technologicaly eavanced polymer handled knife, to using a handmade stag handled knife made by a local maker.
So I guess from that you can see that I have been regressing more and more into traditional ways.

the Idea of shooting a rifle that I had cast the projectile for myself kind of appeals to me.

On another note. In highschool I was trained as a blacksmith by a very interesting man named Dan Cochran. He and I got to be very good friends and he admonished me continually on the progression of my skills. He was a bit of a traditionalist and was alwayse tring to impress upon me the virtues of traditional hunting and lifestyle. He had a Pedersoli Hawken percussion rifle in .54 caliber that he had owned for a long time. In an effort to kindly enable me to experience the virtues of the lifestyle he so highly extoled he once offered me that rifle for two hundred fifty dollars. I was too poor at the time and a young girl who I thought I would marry was not helping matters any.
Now that I am about to graduate from college and move into a carear, I feel a longing to remember those simpler times. I would like to return to Abilene later this year and see if his old offer still stands and perhaps work something out whith him. It would mean alot to me to have this rifle not only as a hunting tool but as a peice memorabelia to remind me of Dan.

Todays world gets so busy it seems. And it seems that the same holds true for firearms. Semi automatic rifles can burp out ammo at continuous rates now and everyone is alwayse talking about the newes flash in the pan technology that has come around.

I get enough busy and hurry at work and as school. I think it would just be nice to have such a rifle that reminds me to slow down and load each shot, and to enjoy it while it lasts for as long as it lasts because the next shot cannot be taken for granted.


Well there you go I have gone off on a ramble for you guys but perhaps it gives you a better Idea of what I am looking to get into.

It is not absolutely necissary that I have Dan's rifle so other rifles are still on the block and I am still shopping. It is just one that would be especially meaningfull for me to own and that I would likely never sale but rather hand down to posterity.

 

[SavageArcher]

Wildpony Welcome to the forum and I think you'll fit right in here. Whatever choice you make, you'll find plenty of helpful advice from the members here just as I have.

 

[WV MZL HUNTER]

:thumbsup:It Sounds like you know what you want out of life and thats half the battle. :hatsoff:
GOOD LUCK

 

[CrackStock]

Given your info, I suggest that you start with a caplock Lyman Great Plains in .54. Roundball twist if your friend's prodding you toward traditional is driving your interest. Conical twist if long range Texas hunting is the motivating factor.

Why this gun?

Inexpensive gun to start out shooting

.54 carries well over a distance where you will be shooting and ammo is fairly easy to acquire.

Lighter barrel (Bigger hole drilled down the center)

Reliable

Accurate

Closest outward image to a Hawken (Which you express a findness for) of the mass produced guns.
(T/C would be first for product and customer support, but they lose out on the cosmetic side of the equation)

Why cap? Because you mentioned a halfstock Hawken. Besides, when you want a flinter, you will want one to look correct. Save that for a fullstock custom gun after you are truly addicted.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

CS

 

[rebuse]

I have hunded deer with modern rifle and bow and have slowly but surely started to add more and more primitive equipment on my hunting excoursions.

Hmmm...this caught my attention. This is kind of how I got into BP rifles. As I got better at shooting, it became less of a challenge, and oh how I love a challenge. So, I bought my T/C Renegade (caplock), and started learning and shooting, BUT, with no delay I found it as accurate out to 100 yds, and the challenge went away quickly, so I bought a T/C Hawkins (Flintlock) to move up...err...back...err...however you want to say it. BUT, it still had adjustable (modern) sights. So now, I'm shooting my Lehigh Valley Longrifle, which I just sighted-in today at 100 yds. I had to file off about 1/8" of the front sight and give it one light tap to the left to knock out the center of the target, but...for hunting, it will always be a challenge...I need a wide open field just to swing it around (42" barrel). As it is with rifles, I've found contentment. Plus I have a beautiful rifle to pass down to my (someday) son.

Preacher :thumbsup: