newbie need advise on load for a Cabela's 1858

[bill-e]

Hi All,

I'm new to this and I believe I'm going to pick up a Cabela's 44 cal New Army 1858 steel.

After doing some research I think that this is a good first gun for me though I'm betting I'll have a 51 Navy in short order.

So, the gun is on sale for $189 and I've spent some time reading through the reviews and searching message bases for information but I just haven't been able to find a consistent answer to all my questions.....so here goes.

Ball size. I've seen a number of recommendations for .451, but also a bunch for .454 and a few recommendations for .457. Does the barrel size differ a lot for this gun? I think I'm leaning towards .454 but would like some comments on this.

Propellant. Again, a lot of reviews say 777 fffg but then I see people recommending all different brands. Is there an acknowledged leader in this area?

Caps. Again Remington #10's but is that a good selection?

And then there's the wads and patches...I really dont know what I need here.

And lastly the other accessories. Which powder flask, which nipple wrench....do I need to buy spare nipples.

If you can help answering any of these questions I will greatly appreciate it.

Thanks
Bill

 

[mazo kid]

Ball size. I've seen a number of recommendations for .451, but also a bunch for .454 and a few recommendations for .457. Does the barrel size differ a lot for this gun? I think I'm leaning towards .454 but would like some comments on this.

Propellant. Again, a lot of reviews say 777 fffg but then I see people recommending all different brands. Is there an acknowledged leader in this area?

Caps. Again Remington #10's but is that a good selection?

And then there's the wads and patches...I really dont know what I need here.

And lastly the other accessories. Which powder flask, which nipple wrench....do I need to buy spare nipples.
Bill

Bill, all my 44s do well with .451 RBs and #11 caps. Depends on the mold if you cast your own; some are a bit larger than others. It's not so much a matter of barrel size as cylinder chamber size. Try to borrow some 451 and 454 RBs and see what works. What you are looking for is a thin ring of lead shaved off the ball as you seat it. If you are getting it with the 451s then use them, if not, then go to 454. The 457 size is pretty much for the Ruger Old Army revolver. Same with caps; you want them to seat snugly on the nipple. Propellant....I only shoot the holy black in my guns as it is traditional and cheaper than the substitutes. I know BP is hard to get in some areas so go with what you can get. Triple7ven is hotter than black so back off about 8-10% or so. As far as wads (patches are NOT to be used), some use greased wads over the ball as a form of sealant and lubrication. Others use some type of grease such as BoreButter or Crisco.
Powder flask... just get one that has easy-to- read graduations and in the lower charge range, say 15-40 grains and DON'T pour directly from the flask into the chamber. As a rule, I don't pull the nipples when cleaning, so if you want a nipple wrench get one that fits the nipple snugly so as not to round off the flats. You shouldn't need to buy nipples for a long time unless you dry fire and batter their ends. Hope I have covered most of your questions and maybe someone else will join in and add comments.

 

[Cage Dodger]

I've been shooting BP for the better part of a year so I'm fairly new at this. But I can give you a few answers:

Ball size: see what the manufacturer recommends. Generally speaking, a small ring of lead should be shaved off all the way around the ball when you seat it in the chamber.

Propellant: I started out using 777 and have had no problems so that's what I'll probably stick with. While it costs a little more, 777 has a little more BANG than an equvalent volume of BP or Pyrodex, about 15% more. I use 25-30gr in my Ruger Old Army. That's probably a good starting load. Your most accurate load will likely not be the biggest capacity load.

Caps: I've been using CCI #11s on my ROA. Use whatever caps fit snugly. You don't want caps falling off of unfired chambers as this could result in a chain fire.

Wads and Patches: you don't use patches in a cap & ball revolver. Wads (pre-lubed) help keep fouling soft and provide an additional seal at the front to prevent a chain fire. I use them. They go between the powder and ball. Some will tell you to either use a wad or smear grease (or Crisco, etc.) over the ball to seal the mouth of the chamber. To me, it seems that if you are getting a good ring off the ball when seating, nothing is going to get past it. But I still use wads.

I don't know about using different nipples as the ones on mine are just fine.

You will need a powder flask (never pour from the original bottle) and a powder measure (to precisely load each chamber).

Hope this helps.

Cage :v

 

[bill-e]

Thanks guys,

The good news is that I just called a shop like 8 minutes away and they have BP supplies. I asked their price on the 777 and it was within a buck of Cabela's so I'm assuming that the rest of their supplies are reasonably priced.

That means I can just order the 1858 from Cabela's and get the supplies local which should make it easier to find the right ball size etc.

For most of my other hobbies I have to do mail order since I live out in the sticks but I should have realized BP and guns would be readily available here in New Hampshire

Powder flask... just get one that has easy-to- read graduations and in the lower charge range, say 15-40 grains and DON'T pour directly from the flask into the chamber.

I don't understand this. It seems you're saying to measure using the flask, but to the pour the BP into something else before the chamber....can you explain in "Black Powder for Dummies" language?

Thanks
Bill

 

[Blizzard of '93]

welcome to the Forum bill-e. a .38spcl caseful of 3F BP is a good target load for the .44cal '58 useing .454 balls.
a .357Mag caseful is a little hotter.
7.62X39 caseful (about 32 grs) is a good load useing a RB or I use a Lee mold conical over a felt button.
I have squeezed 40 grs (cut down 30-30 caseful)of 3F in loading a RB over but the pressure on the loading lever pivot pin is substantial. it's a hot load but my groups open up past about 30 grs powder.

 

[R.M.]

Should you use 777, like has been stated, reduce the load by about 15%. I'd start with 15gr of 777 and work from there. I don't think you said if it was a brass frame or not. It's wise to keep brass frame guns loaded lower than steel ones. It'll make them last longer.

 

[bill-e]

R.M. it is a steel frame. The main reason for considering the 777 is that I read that it is less messy than the other propellants and much less messy then BP.....true?

 

[R.M.]

I use 22gr of 777 for target work in my Ruger, even though it will handle much more. For yours, I'd still start with about 15gr, and go from there.

 

[mykeal]

Thanks guys,

The good news is that I just called a shop like 8 minutes away and they have BP supplies. I asked their price on the 777 and it was within a buck of Cabela's so I'm assuming that the rest of their supplies are reasonably priced.

That means I can just order the 1858 from Cabela's and get the supplies local which should make it easier to find the right ball size etc.

For most of my other hobbies I have to do mail order since I live out in the sticks but I should have realized BP and guns would be readily available here in New Hampshire

Powder flask... just get one that has easy-to- read graduations and in the lower charge range, say 15-40 grains and DON'T pour directly from the flask into the chamber.

I don't understand this. It seems you're saying to measure using the flask, but to the pour the BP into something else before the chamber....can you explain in "Black Powder for Dummies" language?

Thanks
Bill

If you have a local shop that sells bp supplies, ask if they carry Goex, Swiss or KIK real black powder. They won't have it on the shelf but they may carry it just the same. It'll likely be cheaper than the 777.

The issue about pouring directly from the flask into the gun is really more important for rifles than revolvers; it's possible that a hot ember might remain from the last shot and ignite the powder when it's poured in the barrel. If it's being poured from a flask full of powder you'll have a grenade in your hand in no time. If you're using a small powder measure the result will be much less spectacular and injurious. The problem is less likely with a revolver because the chambers are much shorter and embers tend to cool a lot faster, but it can still happen, theoretically. So, take the safe route and pour from the flask into a separate, smaller powder measure, and then into the chamber from the measure.

Some flasks come with a calibrated spout that allows you to measure the powder directly from the flask, and some folks take advantage of that to pour the measured charge directly from the flask; the valve on the flask can still stick open and leave you at risk for the grenade launcher effect, so it's still better to use the separate measure.

 

[TANSTAAFL]

As stated on another thread, my Pietta 58 takes .454 RB and .452 conical. With factory nipples, Remington #10's give good ignition and are nice and tight.

Have only used 3f BP, loads running from 17 up to 28 grains, with and without lubed fiber wads. Most accurate with light RB loads and wads, but not much oomph.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Real black is available in your area...it will yield better results and is cheaper than 777. One more thing to recommend you get is Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine. It's a great deal easier doing the clean-up with this stuff, and it's non-toxic. It's distributed by Lyman in Ct.

As for a load for the '58: 25 grains of real black, a pre-lubed ox-yoke style wonder-wad, and a .454 Hornady ball does the trick. You can use more powder, but your groups tend to open-up some.

Now for the "I'm going to have to get" list:

1. Powder flask
2. Loading stand that holds the revolver barrel-up
3. Tubes to store & pour powder into the chambers
4. Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine
5. Ox-yoke wonder-wads, .45 cal
6. .454 Balls
7. #10 caps
8. Nipple pick
9. Gun oil
10. holster
11. real black powder local or mail-order!
12. cleaning kit cal. .45 pistol with long rod for 8" barrel
13. lots of patience and practice!

Good luck and welcome to the Forum!

Dave

 

[Blizzard of '93]

windsheild washer fluid in spray bottle to wash down your revolver with. then scrub well. get the winter mix it has more alky in it. cleans BP residue and grease leavings well. scrub of course and rinse with water - hot if available.
I use a small stiff paint brush to scrub with. and bore brush of course for chambers and bore.
then dry and lube.

 

[bill-e]

Thanks Guys,

The gun is scheduled to be delivered tomorrow....not bad, two day delivery from Cabela's but I'm on a biz trip so playing will have to wait for the weekend.

I'm hoping to get the basic stuff I need to shoot and clean this weekend and will pick the other necessities up as time permits and I know better what I want.

I'm pretty excited.

 

[mykeal]

...I'm on a biz trip so playing will have to wait for the weekend.

Clearly you have to reorganize your priorities. :nono: :shake:

 

[bill-e]

I just got home from a biz trip to find the 1858 box awaiting me.

The Pietta manual states .454 and 12-15 grains of fffg which is lower than most people recommend. Do they do this to assure that they are not liable for over charging?

 

[Zonie]

Yup

I'm just wondering.
With those light loads do they say anything about adding corn meal or something similar to assure that the ball compresses the powder load?

IMO, that 12 grain load might be small enough that the stroke limits on the rammer wouldn't seat the ball on the powder.
For instance, the chambers on my Remington Army .44 are 1.350 deep. The ram will push the ball into the cylinder about .340 deep.
If I add the diameter of the ball to the depth the ram will push it I get about .794. That leaves the available space for the powder at .556.
Actually the volume of that space would be a little bigger because the ball is a sphere so some powder would be above the lower tangent point.

Anyway, I suggest a minimum load for a .44 at about 20 grains of 3Fg powder.

 

[mykeal]

Why Pietta does this is anybody's guess. It makes no sense to me.

It has been suggested that grains are a different size in Italy. Chi conosce...?

 

[bill-e]

Ok, just loaded and fired off 6 shots. I loaded 3 cylinders with 22 grains and 3 with 25 grains. I lost track of which were which and this complete newbie couldn't really tell the difference.

I did hit my makeshift target all six times though two were kinda wild. I also hit a bullseye on the first shot but was pretty close so I backed up as far as I could in the woods which I'm guessing was still only about 40 feet.

Being that I haven't shot a pistol in 10 or more years and that was only a half dozen rounds I thought just hitting the target paper was an accomplishment

I greased the balls using crisco on the end of a 3/8" dowel and that worked pretty well and wasn't messy.

Time for a dump run and then another load.