-
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
newbie queston about powder
- Thread starter Mike1911
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
Mike, goex is a brand of black powder. Pyrodex, triple 7, and clear shot are all different formulations of imitation black powder. If you choose to use an imitation powder heed the manufacturers warnings. I have never used clearshot,what little I have used triple 7 it has worked well,I wouldn't use pyrodex if you paid me to..............watch yer top knot
'Goex' is a brand of black powder; it was an independent company until recently when it was purchased by Hodgdon. It's widely popular, so the name Goex has become synonymous with black powder, kind of like Xerox is for fascimiles and Kleenex is for facial tissues.
Goex also makes a synthetic black powder product called Pinnacle, so one needs to be a little careful when buying Goex to be sure you're getting the one you want.
There are other brands of black powder: KIK, Swiss, Scheutzen, Graf's and Jack's come to mind. Some are simply Goex repackaged, others are thier own manufacture.
Triple Seven, Pyrodex, Clear Shot, American Pioneer and Blackhorn 209 are synthetic, or substitute, or imitation black powders. They essentially differ from real black powder in that their ignition temperatures (the temperature that a primer needs to produce in order to cause ignition) are significantly higher than real black powder.
BATFE has classified real black powder as a low order explosive, while the synthetics are each classified as a propellant. This classification difference has caused real black powder to be difficult and more expensive to store and several outlets have ceased carrying it as a result.
Real black powder is a simple compound mixture of three commonly available ingredients; many people make their own at home. The synthetics all have proprietary formulas that are quite a bit more complex. I'll refrain from speculating on what each actually contains, although I'm sure that will come up at some point in this thread.
With regard to performance, you'll get many opinions. My experience of over 30 years leaves me using Goex almost exclusively, although I do keep Triple Seven around as a backup in case I should run short. As a broad generalization I'll just say that Triple Seven is 15% hotter than real black powder, while the other substitutes perform about the same as real black. There are also compression, cleaning and corrosion issues with some of the synthetics.
That's a broad brush overview. The details would take several pages. There are some well done articles on the internet that can provide some good comparisons; let Google be your guide. A search on this forum will also turn up some useful threads.
Goex also makes a synthetic black powder product called Pinnacle, so one needs to be a little careful when buying Goex to be sure you're getting the one you want.
There are other brands of black powder: KIK, Swiss, Scheutzen, Graf's and Jack's come to mind. Some are simply Goex repackaged, others are thier own manufacture.
Triple Seven, Pyrodex, Clear Shot, American Pioneer and Blackhorn 209 are synthetic, or substitute, or imitation black powders. They essentially differ from real black powder in that their ignition temperatures (the temperature that a primer needs to produce in order to cause ignition) are significantly higher than real black powder.
BATFE has classified real black powder as a low order explosive, while the synthetics are each classified as a propellant. This classification difference has caused real black powder to be difficult and more expensive to store and several outlets have ceased carrying it as a result.
Real black powder is a simple compound mixture of three commonly available ingredients; many people make their own at home. The synthetics all have proprietary formulas that are quite a bit more complex. I'll refrain from speculating on what each actually contains, although I'm sure that will come up at some point in this thread.
With regard to performance, you'll get many opinions. My experience of over 30 years leaves me using Goex almost exclusively, although I do keep Triple Seven around as a backup in case I should run short. As a broad generalization I'll just say that Triple Seven is 15% hotter than real black powder, while the other substitutes perform about the same as real black. There are also compression, cleaning and corrosion issues with some of the synthetics.
That's a broad brush overview. The details would take several pages. There are some well done articles on the internet that can provide some good comparisons; let Google be your guide. A search on this forum will also turn up some useful threads.
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,537
- Reaction score
- 89
Mike: Welcome to the forum. Take Heed to what McKeal has written above.
As to buying the " right " powder for your new, 1851 Replica Revolver, you should be looking for a " PISTOL " powder. In Real Black Powder, you are generally going to use Goex Black Powder in FFFg granulation. In a rare case, some guns shoot better using Goex FFg powder.
There are different granulations or sizes of granules of Black Powder, and since the mid 19th century, they have been designated by the " F" system.
Fg is considered suitable for use in cannons. Its the most coarse granule size sold by Goex.( The small "g" after the F indicates the powder is coated in graphite- used to eliminate the possible firing of the powder by static electricity. )
FFg is considered Suitable for use in Rifles, shotguns and large bore pistols.
FFFg is considered suitable for use in revolvers and small bore pistols, and is also used often in many rifles. As the Granule size goes smaller, the rate at which the powder burns increases, so that FFFg will generate more Pressure than does FFg in a given caliber.
FFFFg is suitable for use ONLY as a Priming powder for Flintlocks.
The industry makes even finer grades of black powder= 7Fg for firecrackers, for instance-- but sale of these items are limited. ( 7Fg powder was also sold to Photographers to use, before electric lights came into being, for Flash lighting of their subjects to take pictures. It was dangerous, as the powder burns so fast, and was burned openly, so that when too much of the powder was used( very often), any flammable item near the flash could be ignited. If you see the movie " Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid", the photographer who takes the pictures of the two western crooks uses this kind of flash powder to light up the pictures. )
Swiss Powder has its own grading system, for its powder.
When you turn to the substitute, or replica( Synthetic) powders, like Pyrodex, and Triple Seven, or Pinnacle, each company that makes and markets these products has its own recommendation for which powder should be used in revolvers. Pyrodex, made by Hodgdon Powder Co., designates its pistol powder as " Pyrodex P ". Pyrodex powder for Rifles and Shotguns is designated as "Pyrodex RS".
If you are going to buy any synthetic powder- ie, NOT BLACK POWDER-- then you MUST READ carefully the information on the packaging as to what the manufacturer says it should be used for shooting. DON'T GET YOUR INFORMATION FROM DISCOUNT STORE CLERKS! If you have any questions, come back here and ask.
As to buying Black Powder, few retail outlets still carry it, simply because of the New( since 9/11) requirements for storage imposed by Homeland Security, on top of State Regulations. The kicker for most retailers is that it has to be stored at least 300 feet from residential properties. That eliminates most " strip mall" stores.
Under member resources here, on the index page to this forum, you will find a section titled, " Articles, Charts, and Links". "LINKS" is computer talk for fast ways to find other sites of use for you. If you click on "links", you get a list of suppliers and dealers in Traditional , pre-1865 products, divided into sections to make it easier for you to go to the area of interest. Under " Powder", you find a list of names of manufacturers, and suppliers. Click On GOEX( or do an engine search for GOEX) The site has a map of the United States, with flags to indicate the location of distributors of their products around the country. Find a GOEX distributor closest to you, and click on that name. You will get the address and name of the company, and, usually, a toll free phone number to call. Call the company ( distributor) and ask them for the name of the closest retail store that sells black powder. If there is NO close retailer, the distributor will be happy to arrange to sell and deliver to you the powder you need.
Now, all Black Powder, and percussion caps, are subject to a " Haz Mat( hazardous materials) Fee, that is charged for each shipment of powder in interstate commerce. The Current fee is apparently $22.50 per shipment. It only makes sense to join with other BP shooters, who also have to find ways to acquire BLACK Powder, and caps) to order a larger shipment of powder, than what you might use in a year, for instance, so that the Haz Mat fee is divided over more pounds of powder, lowering the cost of shipping. NO?
There are often state restrictions on how much powder YOU can possess, unless you also meet certain state requirements regarding storage. OBEY ALL LAWS. You can lose your right to own and possess all firearms if you don't! This limitation controls how much powder you can possess, but not how much you can buy, or have shipped to you.
Federal Regulations limit you to receiving no more than 2 cases- 50 lbs. of powder per single shipment. That would be 50- 1 lb. cans or bottles of powder( Bulk powder sold in plastic bags also is available from some sources. With this, you would have to divide the bulk powder into your own containers for local storage.--ie., SAVE YOUR OLD POWDER CANS!)
Case prices are usually the cheapest way to buy Black Powder and represent a considerable savings.
The only way to pay less, is to travel to the distributor's business, and buy your powder directly from him, so YOU transport the powder home, and you will not be charged the Haz Mat fee.
With the price of gasoline, having it shipped to your house would normally be cheaper. However, if you happen to have another reason for driving past or near the location of a distributor, then buying the powder direct does makes sense.
If you find a local shooting range or club, for black powder shooters- check the Charter Clubs listed by the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association( NMLRA)-- you will find other shooters with whom to join together to buy case lots of Black Powder.
My gun club has done this annually for more than 30 years as a service to its members. Orders are taken, and checks made out to the club treasurer. When he has enough orders to order a case of powder, the order is placed. When the shipment arrives at his home, he calls members who have ordered the powder and they go to his home to pick up their orders. If the money they paid is not enough, or was too much, the matter is settled with the Treasurer when the powder is picked up, with many members simply leaving extra money with him to help pay for their next order of powder.
As to buying the " right " powder for your new, 1851 Replica Revolver, you should be looking for a " PISTOL " powder. In Real Black Powder, you are generally going to use Goex Black Powder in FFFg granulation. In a rare case, some guns shoot better using Goex FFg powder.
There are different granulations or sizes of granules of Black Powder, and since the mid 19th century, they have been designated by the " F" system.
Fg is considered suitable for use in cannons. Its the most coarse granule size sold by Goex.( The small "g" after the F indicates the powder is coated in graphite- used to eliminate the possible firing of the powder by static electricity. )
FFg is considered Suitable for use in Rifles, shotguns and large bore pistols.
FFFg is considered suitable for use in revolvers and small bore pistols, and is also used often in many rifles. As the Granule size goes smaller, the rate at which the powder burns increases, so that FFFg will generate more Pressure than does FFg in a given caliber.
FFFFg is suitable for use ONLY as a Priming powder for Flintlocks.
The industry makes even finer grades of black powder= 7Fg for firecrackers, for instance-- but sale of these items are limited. ( 7Fg powder was also sold to Photographers to use, before electric lights came into being, for Flash lighting of their subjects to take pictures. It was dangerous, as the powder burns so fast, and was burned openly, so that when too much of the powder was used( very often), any flammable item near the flash could be ignited. If you see the movie " Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid", the photographer who takes the pictures of the two western crooks uses this kind of flash powder to light up the pictures. )
Swiss Powder has its own grading system, for its powder.
When you turn to the substitute, or replica( Synthetic) powders, like Pyrodex, and Triple Seven, or Pinnacle, each company that makes and markets these products has its own recommendation for which powder should be used in revolvers. Pyrodex, made by Hodgdon Powder Co., designates its pistol powder as " Pyrodex P ". Pyrodex powder for Rifles and Shotguns is designated as "Pyrodex RS".
If you are going to buy any synthetic powder- ie, NOT BLACK POWDER-- then you MUST READ carefully the information on the packaging as to what the manufacturer says it should be used for shooting. DON'T GET YOUR INFORMATION FROM DISCOUNT STORE CLERKS! If you have any questions, come back here and ask.
As to buying Black Powder, few retail outlets still carry it, simply because of the New( since 9/11) requirements for storage imposed by Homeland Security, on top of State Regulations. The kicker for most retailers is that it has to be stored at least 300 feet from residential properties. That eliminates most " strip mall" stores.
Under member resources here, on the index page to this forum, you will find a section titled, " Articles, Charts, and Links". "LINKS" is computer talk for fast ways to find other sites of use for you. If you click on "links", you get a list of suppliers and dealers in Traditional , pre-1865 products, divided into sections to make it easier for you to go to the area of interest. Under " Powder", you find a list of names of manufacturers, and suppliers. Click On GOEX( or do an engine search for GOEX) The site has a map of the United States, with flags to indicate the location of distributors of their products around the country. Find a GOEX distributor closest to you, and click on that name. You will get the address and name of the company, and, usually, a toll free phone number to call. Call the company ( distributor) and ask them for the name of the closest retail store that sells black powder. If there is NO close retailer, the distributor will be happy to arrange to sell and deliver to you the powder you need.
Now, all Black Powder, and percussion caps, are subject to a " Haz Mat( hazardous materials) Fee, that is charged for each shipment of powder in interstate commerce. The Current fee is apparently $22.50 per shipment. It only makes sense to join with other BP shooters, who also have to find ways to acquire BLACK Powder, and caps) to order a larger shipment of powder, than what you might use in a year, for instance, so that the Haz Mat fee is divided over more pounds of powder, lowering the cost of shipping. NO?
There are often state restrictions on how much powder YOU can possess, unless you also meet certain state requirements regarding storage. OBEY ALL LAWS. You can lose your right to own and possess all firearms if you don't! This limitation controls how much powder you can possess, but not how much you can buy, or have shipped to you.
Federal Regulations limit you to receiving no more than 2 cases- 50 lbs. of powder per single shipment. That would be 50- 1 lb. cans or bottles of powder( Bulk powder sold in plastic bags also is available from some sources. With this, you would have to divide the bulk powder into your own containers for local storage.--ie., SAVE YOUR OLD POWDER CANS!)
Case prices are usually the cheapest way to buy Black Powder and represent a considerable savings.
The only way to pay less, is to travel to the distributor's business, and buy your powder directly from him, so YOU transport the powder home, and you will not be charged the Haz Mat fee.
With the price of gasoline, having it shipped to your house would normally be cheaper. However, if you happen to have another reason for driving past or near the location of a distributor, then buying the powder direct does makes sense.
If you find a local shooting range or club, for black powder shooters- check the Charter Clubs listed by the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association( NMLRA)-- you will find other shooters with whom to join together to buy case lots of Black Powder.
My gun club has done this annually for more than 30 years as a service to its members. Orders are taken, and checks made out to the club treasurer. When he has enough orders to order a case of powder, the order is placed. When the shipment arrives at his home, he calls members who have ordered the powder and they go to his home to pick up their orders. If the money they paid is not enough, or was too much, the matter is settled with the Treasurer when the powder is picked up, with many members simply leaving extra money with him to help pay for their next order of powder.
Thanks very much for the great information and help.
I just have one other question if I may.
I've seen black powder pellets. Is this something worth looking into?
Also on another board I visit they are having a group buy on Goex and I ordered a can it it.
I just have one other question if I may.
I've seen black powder pellets. Is this something worth looking into?
Also on another board I visit they are having a group buy on Goex and I ordered a can it it.
I think you will find the "pellets" are probably Pyrodex. I don't shoot any of the substitute powders so I don't know if any others compress their powder into pellets, but it will NOT be real black powder. When you ordered the black powder group buy,....where will the powder be delivered? Will you have to pick it up? If not, it may be difficult to find someone to ship it as it has to be through a specific HazMat licensed shipper. I ran into this a couple of years ago when a fellow in Utah (I think) had a case of black powder for sale very reasonable. The deal was made, but fell apart as he couldn't find any way to ship it. Good luck in your new shooting hobby, it's great fun! EmeryMike1911 I've seen black powder [color=red said:
Mike1911 said:
Blackpowder is essentially all the same formula.
There are differences in the formulation and processes of making the powder that can change its performance.
The various replica powders are not blackpowder.
Some have a large percentage of potassium perchlorate in the mix. This chemical produces a very corrosive fouling that can be very insidious.
There are two types of shooters using perchlorate powders, those with pitted bores and those who have not noticed the pits yet.
None of the replicas are actually superior to BP though T-7, a modification of P-dex, may produce higher velocity but it is designed for inlines using shotgun primer ignition.
The replicas advantage, from the sellers stand point, is that they do not require an explosives license to sell. BP does though its really no more dangerous than any other propellant and actually safer than some.
Some replica powders have very poor ballistic properties and have storage issues as well.
BP can be ordered by UPS in 5 pound lots from most distributors if you cannot find a dealer locally. But there will be a $22 haz-mat charge added so if you have several friends who need powder order 25 or 50 pounds and divide it between the group.
The 51 Navy will shoot well with enough FFFG Blackpowder to just allow the ball to be seated with slight compression on the powder. Then some soft bullet lube over the case mouth.
Some use a wonder wad or such under the ball but I never have.
Percussion caps should fit the nipples snuggly.
Clean the barrel and cylinder in a container of tepid water with a little soap in it. Rinse with clean water and dry/oil. Wipe the bore/chambers clean before rinsing, wet toothbrush for the nipple seat areas. Most light aerosol gun oils or WD-40 will drive off the water.
Wipe the frame and hammer clean. Keep the frame internals oiled and check every 2-3 months. Clean internals 2-4 times a year by removing the grips and washing in a container of warm-hot soapy water then rinse/dry/oil. I remove all the screws and clean each part to make sure the screw threads are dried and oiled. WD40 will drive water from the nooks and crannies. Use plenty when used for this purpose then wipe off the WD40 and oil lightly.
IIRC the Gov't process for detail cleaning the SAA revolver was to remove the grips, slosh the entire revolver in bucket or tub of warm/hot water then plunge into a bucket of kerosene to drive off the water.
If perchlorate powders are used use HOT soapy water and lots of it. Then WD-40 then oil.
The perchlorate fouling will remain active under an oil film BP fouling goes inert/nearly inert if oiled.
Dan
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,537
- Reaction score
- 89
Mazo is right. The only "Pellets" being sold are Pyrodex. They are expensive, they are " synthetic", and they don't work in my flintlocks! unless a starter charge of 5-10 grains of Black Powder (depending on caliber) is used down the barrel, first, to ignite the darn stuff! :cursing:
Johnny Tremain
Silversmith in training
Mountain folk use real black powder
all them fake pellet stuff is for them flatlander inline, artificial wannabe mountain folk :rotf:
all them fake pellet stuff is for them flatlander inline, artificial wannabe mountain folk :rotf:
Once again you guys are great! Thanks very much for all the help on the pellets and everything.
" When you ordered the black powder group buy,....where will the powder be delivered?"
The guy doing this will make arrangments for getting it to everyone most likey at a central pick-up place.
" When you ordered the black powder group buy,....where will the powder be delivered?"
The guy doing this will make arrangments for getting it to everyone most likey at a central pick-up place.
I've heard of Pyrodex pellets for a .44 revolver but not for a .36 Navy. You'd better go to Track of the Wolf (www.trackofthewolf.com/) and look at their powder flasks that throw a particular powder charge. For a .36, if that's what you have, you should be pretty pleased with about 20 grains of FFFg or less.
Guest
Mike1911 said:
Two mistakes.
One, pellets are for inline firearms, not real muzzleloaders.
Two, you got your info from another forum, without checking here first. :wink:
lonehunter
58 Cal.
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2009
- Messages
- 2,107
- Reaction score
- 12
:thumbsup:
Johnny Tremain said:
I just read this on one of those other forums... :grin:
Yeah, like a student asking why study for a test because he has all the answers from his older brother. I used to think there was a fine line which seperated the traditionaly inclined shooter/hunters and those who prefered the modern gear,now I believe it is a line somewhere about the width of the Grand Canyon
