NGD - 1861 Rifle Musket (but what exactly is it?)

[wiscoaster]

New Gun Day

No, it's not a real Springfield 1861, and it's not a Pedersoli 1861 repro (not that any are available anywhere), and I'm still trying to figure out exactly what I've got here, but no doubt, it's sure purty: an 1861 .58 cal rifle musket by Colt as "Signature Series":

Scored recently on GB for less than a Pedersoli repro would have cost anyway. But since Colt did make some rifle muskets for the Civil War, with some variations from the Springfield (most notably the lock, hammer, barrel bands and ramrod), I grabbed this one at less than a Pedersoli repro would have set me back to represent my Civil War longarm collection niche. The bore looks like it's unfired, though there's some light handling scratches on the metal, easily polished out. Now, I need to score me some musket caps and the appropriate sized nipple wrench ..... then, to shoot it!! Yah!!

Any info as to this beauty's provenance would be welcomed.

 

[hawkeye2]

Search Colt 1861 Special Model and you'll find all you need to know.

 

[2 shots]

colt signature series

 

[dave951]

New Gun Day

No, it's not a real Springfield 1861, and it's not a Pedersoli 1861 repro (not that any are available anywhere), and I'm still trying to figure out exactly what I've got here, but no doubt, it's sure purty: an 1861 .58 cal rifle musket by Colt as "Signature Series":
View attachment 257769
View attachment 257770
View attachment 257771

Scored recently on GB for less than a Pedersoli repro would have cost anyway. But since Colt did make some rifle muskets for the Civil War, with some variations from the Springfield (most notably the lock, hammer, barrel bands and ramrod), I grabbed this one at less than a Pedersoli repro would have set me back to represent my Civil War longarm collection niche. The bore looks like it's unfired, though there's some light handling scratches on the metal, easily polished out. Now, I need to score me some musket caps and the appropriate sized nipple wrench ..... then, to shoot it!! Yah!!

Any info as to this beauty's provenance would be welcomed.

I shoot a 2 band version of the same gun. You'll probably find that it takes .580 minies to shoot properly. Nearly every one of these I've seen was the same. If you insist on .575, be prepared to be disappointed.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Info I found online:

"Colt 1861 ‘Signature Series’ Rifled Muskets

Colt Signature Series
The Colt Signature Series were not actually produced by Colt but were made under licensing from Colt Firearms. There were made in two versions, a 3-band musket with the lockplate marked ‘Colt – Hartford, CT’ and in a 2-band musket, with lockplate marked ‘Amoskeag – Manchester, NH’. It is thought that Chatahoochee Arms made the 2-band muskets b

The Colt Signature Series were produced in 1993-2002 by the same person/outfit who had also produced the 2nd Generation Colt replicas of 1973-76, Lou Imperato. Like those made then, the Colt Signature Series were made from select grade (unmarked) Italian-made parts, but were entirely assembled in the US by the Colt Blackpowder Arms Company of Brooklyn, NY. Note the Imperato family began the Henry Repeating Arms company in 1996.

Warning on arms procured from Chattahoochee Black Powder Arms Company, who bought parts to produce their own versions. It has been reported that many of their breeches were drilled and threaded way too deeply and after the breech plugs were inserted there was 5 or 6 threads exposed above the plug. Some who bought Amoskeag marked 2-banders report they constantly pull cleaning patches off in the breech and have even experienced a few cook offs due to residue collecting in the exposed breech threads. Some have resorted to having Bobby Hoyt do his magic on the gun. Allegedly anyone with such a Chattahoochee could have Hoyt correct it on their dime.

Colt 2nd Generation
The 2nd Generation Colt replicas were assembled by the Iver Johnson Arms Company in Fitchburg, MA, from Italian-made parts obtained from Uberti, not from ArmiSport. Several models not made as part of the 2nd Generation series were latterly produced as part of the Colt Signature Series, such as the 1849 Pocket Dragoon and 1862 Trapper. By 1996, Lou and his son Anthony Imperato had recreated all the original Colt models.

Unlike the earlier 2nd Generation series, Colt had only a very minor role in their recreation compared to the earlier effort in that while Imperato was producing hundreds of 2nd Generation replicas, a handful were diverted to the Colt Custom Shop for the limited factory engraved pieces, and which continued in producing such pieces into the early 1990s from 2nd Generation inventory."

 

[dave951]

And yes, with the right load, that dawg will hunt....

 

[springfield art]

Didn't realize there was a shortage of Pedersoli m1861's; guess they are popular! Is the factory supply slow?

 

[springfield art]

Info I found online:

"Colt 1861 ‘Signature Series’ Rifled Muskets

Colt Signature Series
The Colt Signature Series were not actually produced by Colt but were made under licensing from Colt Firearms. There were made in two versions, a 3-band musket with the lockplate marked ‘Colt – Hartford, CT’ and in a 2-band musket, with lockplate marked ‘Amoskeag – Manchester, NH’. It is thought that Chatahoochee Arms made the 2-band muskets b

The Colt Signature Series were produced in 1993-2002 by the same person/outfit who had also produced the 2nd Generation Colt replicas of 1973-76, Lou Imperato. Like those made then, the Colt Signature Series were made from select grade (unmarked) Italian-made parts, but were entirely assembled in the US by the Colt Blackpowder Arms Company of Brooklyn, NY. Note the Imperato family began the Henry Repeating Arms company in 1996.

Warning on arms procured from Chattahoochee Black Powder Arms Company, who bought parts to produce their own versions. It has been reported that many of their breeches were drilled and threaded way too deeply and after the breech plugs were inserted there was 5 or 6 threads exposed above the plug. Some who bought Amoskeag marked 2-banders report they constantly pull cleaning patches off in the breech and have even experienced a few cook offs due to residue collecting in the exposed breech threads. Some have resorted to having Bobby Hoyt do his magic on the gun. Allegedly anyone with such a Chattahoochee could have Hoyt correct it on their dime.

Colt 2nd Generation
The 2nd Generation Colt replicas were assembled by the Iver Johnson Arms Company in Fitchburg, MA, from Italian-made parts obtained from Uberti, not from ArmiSport. Several models not made as part of the 2nd Generation series were latterly produced as part of the Colt Signature Series, such as the 1849 Pocket Dragoon and 1862 Trapper. By 1996, Lou and his son Anthony Imperato had recreated all the original Colt models.

Unlike the earlier 2nd Generation series, Colt had only a very minor role in their recreation compared to the earlier effort in that while Imperato was producing hundreds of 2nd Generation replicas, a handful were diverted to the Colt Custom Shop for the limited factory engraved pieces, and which continued in producing such pieces into the early 1990s from 2nd Generation inventory."

Imperato is the brains behind the popular Henry Rifle line; Made in America or Not Made At All! Good guy.

 

[wiscoaster]

Info I found online:

THANK YOU!! Just the info I was needing but either too lazy or too busy with other stuff* to go looking for myself. You guys are the greatest!! Also good to know Imperato was behind these guns. That's the highest recco a guy could want.

* actually, time spent looking for and ordering .58 cal rifle musket stuff; I think I've now got everything I need for first shots coming.

 

[springfield art]

Interesting factoid: a Colt Musket was sold at an auction I attended a few years back; it was hard to tell if it was Real or Replica; apparently there was a dispute after the sale, the buyer didn't know what it was precisely, and it caused a bit of a flap. I don't know what happened finally, but I think it went for about 3 grand, and someone must have said something to the buyer. Most auctions are "as is, where is", you buy it, it's yours. I never did find out the final verdict, but if you win a bid at auction, you're pretty much stuck with it. There was at the time a Civil War cannon rammer, for the 12-pounders. It looked for all the world like a 'real' one, but cannon artillery shoots are pretty 'common' in the East, and I pegged it as a replica that had been used for real. It went for $500! (Plus buyer fee and tax!)

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Cowans Auction House even once sold an alledged Hannah Dustin musket … even though Ken Hamilton knew which member of the family still had it!

Ken, Leonard Day, others and me all tried to tell Cowans and all they replied with was, “Proving or disproving the provenance is between the Buyer and Seller!”

Caveat emptor …

 

[GreyGus]

Info I found online:

"Colt 1861 ‘Signature Series’ Rifled Muskets

Colt Signature Series
The Colt Signature Series were not actually produced by Colt but were made under licensing from Colt Firearms. There were made in two versions, a 3-band musket with the lockplate marked ‘Colt – Hartford, CT’ and in a 2-band musket, with lockplate marked ‘Amoskeag – Manchester, NH’. It is thought that Chatahoochee Arms made the 2-band muskets b

The Colt Signature Series were produced in 1993-2002 by the same person/outfit who had also produced the 2nd Generation Colt replicas of 1973-76, Lou Imperato. Like those made then, the Colt Signature Series were made from select grade (unmarked) Italian-made parts, but were entirely assembled in the US by the Colt Blackpowder Arms Company of Brooklyn, NY. Note the Imperato family began the Henry Repeating Arms company in 1996.

Warning on arms procured from Chattahoochee Black Powder Arms Company, who bought parts to produce their own versions. It has been reported that many of their breeches were drilled and threaded way too deeply and after the breech plugs were inserted there was 5 or 6 threads exposed above the plug. Some who bought Amoskeag marked 2-banders report they constantly pull cleaning patches off in the breech and have even experienced a few cook offs due to residue collecting in the exposed breech threads. Some have resorted to having Bobby Hoyt do his magic on the gun. Allegedly anyone with such a Chattahoochee could have Hoyt correct it on their dime.

Colt 2nd Generation
The 2nd Generation Colt replicas were assembled by the Iver Johnson Arms Company in Fitchburg, MA, from Italian-made parts obtained from Uberti, not from ArmiSport. Several models not made as part of the 2nd Generation series were latterly produced as part of the Colt Signature Series, such as the 1849 Pocket Dragoon and 1862 Trapper. By 1996, Lou and his son Anthony Imperato had recreated all the original Colt models.

Unlike the earlier 2nd Generation series, Colt had only a very minor role in their recreation compared to the earlier effort in that while Imperato was producing hundreds of 2nd Generation replicas, a handful were diverted to the Colt Custom Shop for the limited factory engraved pieces, and which continued in producing such pieces into the early 1990s from 2nd Generation inventory."

Although the pistol parts were made by Uberti, I think the parts for the Signature series Colt Special Musket were made by Armi-sport. At least I was told by the rep at Lodgewood that the armi-sport nipples would fit my Colt musket.

 

[hawkeye2]

The muskets were not made by Uberti and I believe that Armi Sport is correct.

 

[wiscoaster]

Although the pistol parts were made by Uberti, I think the parts for the Signature series Colt Special Musket were made by Armi-sport. At least I was told by the rep at Lodgewood that the armi-sport nipples would fit my Colt musket.

Thanks for the additional info. I ordered some musket nipples with square bases, but not sure of the proper thread, so got a couple different. Now if they don't fit I know what to go looking for.

 

[Buckskinquin]

Thanks for the additional info. I ordered some musket nipples with square bases, but not sure of the proper thread, so got a couple different. Now if they don't fit I know what to go looking for.

Next time you’re in this situation. Go to the local hardware store and buy some short screws with the different threads sizes. A lot cheaper than buying nipples.

 

[wiscoaster]

Next time you’re in this situation. Go to the local hardware store and buy some short screws with the different threads sizes. A lot cheaper than buying nipples.

Yes, of course, assuming one already has the proper-sized nipple wrench to get the factory installed nipple out. Which is one of the things I had to order. Nipples are cheap. Waiting to get the wrench, then sizing the screws takes more patience than I have.

 

[Buckskinquin]

Yes, of course, assuming one already has the proper-sized nipple wrench to get the factory installed nipple out. Which is one of the things I had to order. Nipples are cheap. Waiting to get the wrench, then sizing the screws takes more patience than I have.

You don’t have to size the screws, you buy one each of the threads offered on the various nipple. Nipple $7-8, screws $.05 - .015 each. Unless you have a damaged or mongrel nipple a 1/4” box wrench will work. If you’re going to shoot a musket, best work on the patience thing.

 

[wiscoaster]

,,,, best work on the patience thing.

Believe me, been working on that my whole life with only marginal and superficial success. At some point, you just have to accept you are who you are and live with it as best you can. Thanks anyway for the advice, but it's been offered already many a time, and don't need any more of that kind.

 

[Muley Gil]

You don’t have to size the screws, you buy one each of the threads offered on the various nipple. Nipple $7-8, screws $.05 - .015 each. Unless you have a damaged or mongrel nipple a 1/4” box wrench will work. If you’re going to shoot a musket, best work on the patience thing.

Why do you say that? I've been shooting one since 1969 and I haven't found it anymore vexing than any other ML forearm.

 

[Muley Gil]

Interesting factoid: a Colt Musket was sold at an auction I attended a few years back; it was hard to tell if it was Real or Replica; apparently there was a dispute after the sale, the buyer didn't know what it was precisely, and it caused a bit of a flap. I don't know what happened finally, but I think it went for about 3 grand, and someone must have said something to the buyer. Most auctions are "as is, where is", you buy it, it's yours. I never did find out the final verdict, but if you win a bid at auction, you're pretty much stuck with it. There was at the time a Civil War cannon rammer, for the 12-pounders. It looked for all the world like a 'real' one, but cannon artillery shoots are pretty 'common' in the East, and I pegged it as a replica that had been used for real. It went for $500! (Plus buyer fee and tax!)

I once attended a police auction where a Daisy Model 94 BB gun was being sold. The auctioneer told the crowd that this was a BB gun, but it was bid up like it was a real .30-30, at $100. When the "winner" went to pay for it, he realized it wasn't a real firearm and refused to pay for it. The Daisy was re-bid, with the auctioneer once again stressing that this was a BB gun!!! It sold the second time for more than it did the first time!

I left then. Don't know how it turned out.