Whenever I clean any of my rifles the lock and nipple get removed and cleaned same with a touch hole liner, then reassembled with anti-seize on the threads, and oil on the moving parts of the lock.
Nipples: To Remove Or Not Remove
- Thread starter Idahomie
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
You’d think so, would you? The guy accepts layaway, so I just assumed he was some sort of legitimate business and that consumer rights would apply here. Apparently not.
In any case, I don’t want to carry on. It was never my intention to bad-mouth the seller… only to inform you all of what I’m dealing with. I have no doubt that this was simply a fluke and an honest oversight on the seller’s part. I wouldn’t have dealt with him had he not had the positive feedback he did.
I've bought a couple firearms from bornintheussr over the past months & both were well described & he provided great detailed photos to determine condition.
On phone calls to Alek he was very happy to answer any questions. He has a keen eye for finding interesting firearms
but don't believe he is skilled in restoration.
RECOMMENDATION;
It takes experience to determine if an original flint or percussion firearm can be made safe to shoot.
Get good photos of the wood, barrel, breech & internals of the lock & ask opinions of experienced members on the forum.
I've also collected WW-2 firearms & there is a vast difference between that era & collecting Flint & Percussion firearms.
I've been out of collecting WW-2 firearms for 30 years so no longer consider myself very knowledgeable in that field.
It's very common for modern WW-2 era firearms to be repeatedly completely disassembled & fired.
Most collectors of original flint & percussion firearms just display them & rarely if ever fire or pull them apart as it requires 'experience & acquired skill' to determine internal condition of the wood & disassemble properly & without damaging the aged wood & very fine screw heads that are usually stuck.
There are several members on our forum who have shown they have extensive backgrounds in collecting & shooting original firearms & like myself offer their advice & tips to members wanting to learn.
As I've sold-off some my original firearms I have the background to determine & state their shooting condition & usually measure the bores to recommend a proper load & PRB combo.
I also state on some very rare firearms that only 'experienced' shooter collectors consider purchasing them to assure they will last more generations.
Relic shooter
On phone calls to Alek he was very happy to answer any questions. He has a keen eye for finding interesting firearms
but don't believe he is skilled in restoration.
RECOMMENDATION;
It takes experience to determine if an original flint or percussion firearm can be made safe to shoot.
Get good photos of the wood, barrel, breech & internals of the lock & ask opinions of experienced members on the forum.
I've also collected WW-2 firearms & there is a vast difference between that era & collecting Flint & Percussion firearms.
I've been out of collecting WW-2 firearms for 30 years so no longer consider myself very knowledgeable in that field.
It's very common for modern WW-2 era firearms to be repeatedly completely disassembled & fired.
Most collectors of original flint & percussion firearms just display them & rarely if ever fire or pull them apart as it requires 'experience & acquired skill' to determine internal condition of the wood & disassemble properly & without damaging the aged wood & very fine screw heads that are usually stuck.
There are several members on our forum who have shown they have extensive backgrounds in collecting & shooting original firearms & like myself offer their advice & tips to members wanting to learn.
As I've sold-off some my original firearms I have the background to determine & state their shooting condition & usually measure the bores to recommend a proper load & PRB combo.
I also state on some very rare firearms that only 'experienced' shooter collectors consider purchasing them to assure they will last more generations.
Relic shooter
You’re right, Relic. He’s got excellent feedback (100%), which is why I was so surprised to find the pistol arrived with the issues it did.
Please see the attached photos below. The breech crack appears to be a third (possibly two thirds) of the breech’s total width.
Would you believe it if I told you the nipple from my T/C Renegade appears to be a perfect fit? I was very careful to check for lateral play as I screwed it in, and there’s none. There was also no resistance as I did so. What are the odds?
Please see the attached photos below. The breech crack appears to be a third (possibly two thirds) of the breech’s total width.
Would you believe it if I told you the nipple from my T/C Renegade appears to be a perfect fit? I was very careful to check for lateral play as I screwed it in, and there’s none. There was also no resistance as I did so. What are the odds?
Attachments
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2015
- Messages
- 5,018
- Reaction score
- 3,599
To my eye the two nipples look to have very different threads per inch count.
All I know, Jake, is that the T/C nipple has a more positive feel than even the original does. I’ve checked them both at various stages, and the T/C nipple actually has no lateral play when two threads shy of being bottomed out, whereas I can still move the originally ever so slightly with my fingers at that same position.
I know it’s not proper, but measuring the threads with a micrometer yielded .020” spacing between the threads and thread width of .010” for both.
Attachments
Last edited:
I think the odds of a .250”-28 nipple fitting your pistol are pretty good. This was (and still is) a very common size for sporting arms in English-speaking countries.
There is always the possibility of an odd-sized nipple. I have an 1850s-era Austrian military pistol with an odd nipple. However, there were common sizes even back then.
Look at simple solutions first. I’m glad the nipple issue was that easy to resolve!
Notchy Bob
There is always the possibility of an odd-sized nipple. I have an 1850s-era Austrian military pistol with an odd nipple. However, there were common sizes even back then.
Look at simple solutions first. I’m glad the nipple issue was that easy to resolve!
Notchy Bob
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2021
- Messages
- 571
- Reaction score
- 1,047
https://cdn2.imagearchive.com/muzzleloadingforum/data/attach/318/318495-IMG-0686.jpeg
The original nipple is showing shines both on the top and bottom of thread. Makes it look like finer thread. And this is not a good condition for thread fit, as the dia. is tight while the V's can be loose. Your much better off with the new nipple. Good luck with you new gun.
P.S. Also the background in that picture makes it more difficult to see the threads clearly.
The original nipple is showing shines both on the top and bottom of thread. Makes it look like finer thread. And this is not a good condition for thread fit, as the dia. is tight while the V's can be loose. Your much better off with the new nipple. Good luck with you new gun.
P.S. Also the background in that picture makes it more difficult to see the threads clearly.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2015
- Messages
- 5,018
- Reaction score
- 3,599
They look much more alike in the second photo. I was being cautious.
The thread connection between the nipple and drum will be the most stressed area if you decide to shoot the gun, even with a light load. I have been involve in the repair of more than one antique gun that rapidly disassembled (ripping threads out of the drum or bolster for example) when fired, followed quickly with ‘everything felt good’ or similar statement.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, any competent machine shop can confirm thread form and pitch diameter. Back in the day there were plenty of non- standard threads used, and the metric thread system was in its infancy of the development in the late 19th Century.
Turner used to recommend in his catalogs to fire older questionable guns remotely, his method being to hold the gun down in an old tire with a string attached to the trigger that you pulled while you protected yourself by getting behind a tree or something. Then there is the Pawn Stars method of having someone else shoot the gun.
I’ll certainly take the original nipple to a machine shop to confirm (in fact, I’ll take both it and the one from the T/C to see how they compare), but I can’t imagine another exists that will fit the drum so well.
I plan on shooting some blank loads initially (20 grains or so) prior to even attempting it with round ball.
I plan on shooting some blank loads initially (20 grains or so) prior to even attempting it with round ball.
Last edited:
FWIW, a seller will be much more familiar with a personally owned gun than a consignment item.
Fair enough. But he had plenty of opportunity during the photographing process to make note of any damage. The photos themselves weren’t high enough in their resolution to be able to make out the cracks. While I understand that oversights can occur, it's crucial to thoroughly inspect firearms before listing them for sale. This ensures transparency and honesty in transactions, which are essential in our community. I believe that by meticulously examining items before listing, we can avoid situations like this and maintain trust between buyers and sellers.
I applied some acetone to the cracks using an acids brush and injected them with Titebond Ultimate wood glue with an acid brush. That area above the barrel wedge no longer gives when pressed on with my thumb. I also applied some Feed n’ Wax to hopefully hydrate and nourish the wood as well as some Renaissance Wax to offer some further protection.
Attachments
Last edited:
What do you guys think… should I start with a .562 ball to help keep pressures down? Again, bore measured at approximately .575.
I was admiring the engraving as I took it apart. It truly is a work of art!
I was admiring the engraving as I took it apart. It truly is a work of art!
Attachments
Last edited:
CaptainVane
Colt ‘51 & Remington ‘58 .36; Colt ‘48 .31
All 3 of mine, 2 used 1 new, I removed nipples when received just to be sure. One gun had 2 nipples froze up I had a gunsmith remove.
Now i remove and grease about 3 months in season, and once at end of season.
And i never tighten much. Very slight snug. They don’t need to be tight.
I think a .562” patched round ball in a .575” rifled bore would be an excellent choice.
We don’t know how much actual experience you have shooting single-shot muzzleloading pistols, so please excuse me if you already know this, but when you are ramming the ball, lift the pistol off the bench or out of the loading stand and hold it by the barrel with your off hand, with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. You absolutely do not want to ram the ball with the butt of your pistol resting on a hard or unyielding surface, which would put enormous stress on the weakest part of your stock.
We’ll be expecting a field report after your first trip to the range, y’know.
Be safe, and enjoy your pistol. It’s a fine old piece that deserves to be appreciated.
Notchy Bob
We don’t know how much actual experience you have shooting single-shot muzzleloading pistols, so please excuse me if you already know this, but when you are ramming the ball, lift the pistol off the bench or out of the loading stand and hold it by the barrel with your off hand, with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. You absolutely do not want to ram the ball with the butt of your pistol resting on a hard or unyielding surface, which would put enormous stress on the weakest part of your stock.
We’ll be expecting a field report after your first trip to the range, y’know.
Be safe, and enjoy your pistol. It’s a fine old piece that deserves to be appreciated.
Notchy Bob
Thanks, Bob! I don't have a loading stand, so I’m relegated to doing things the old fashioned way— as you just described. I’ll be treating with the care it deserves, and I know better than to force anything.
I’ve tried to research H. New as a 19th century gun maker and came up empty handed; however, I did find this pistol made between 1813-1822 by Gillet of Bristol that looks very similar in its engraving style. Maybe the two makers were part of the same guild or had a partnership of some sort? Then again, perhaps these engraving patterns and styles were in widespread use.
I’ve tried to research H. New as a 19th century gun maker and came up empty handed; however, I did find this pistol made between 1813-1822 by Gillet of Bristol that looks very similar in its engraving style. Maybe the two makers were part of the same guild or had a partnership of some sort? Then again, perhaps these engraving patterns and styles were in widespread use.
Attachments
Last edited:
Sure looks nice in your photos. I also regularly shoot originals but have relegated one to wall hanger status now that I've examined it more closely. It's an over/under percussion rifle/shotgun. The wood has always been oil-soaked but appeared sound. Well, it has become punky. Better to enjoy it whole than shoot it again and have a "parts" gun. It happens. 150-year old things, in fact, are getting more fragile each year.
I’m sorry to hear that— what a shame! I hope it’ll still bring you a certain amount of joy and satisfaction hanging on your wall.
I’ll likely display this H. new pistol on my wall also, only taking it out on rare occasions to shoot along with my other (more contemporary) guns.
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked
