NO "KICKING IT UP A NOTCH"

[Zonie]

Don’t really see how a hammer being too close to the nipple at half cock to put a cap on the nipple is a problem. If one is not capable or unsure of lowering a hammer from full to half cock, not sure I would want them to go from half to full cock.....

A word of caution. NEVER go from full cock directly to half cock if the lock has a fly in it.
The fly's job is to keep the sear from entering the half cock notch while the hammer is falling from the full cock position.

When the nose of the sear comes to the fly, the fly which sticks out above the outside of the tumbler causes the sear to jump over the half cock notch. The problem with this is, if the hammer or cock is lowered slowly, rather than jumping over the fly, the nose of the sear can hang up on it. This will cause the hammer/cock to stop, making it appear that the lock is in the half-cock position while, it is not.

If the sear has hung up on the fly, any sharp rap or impact to the gun can cause the sear nose to lose it's grip on the fly and the hammer/cock will fall to the fired condition, often firing the percussion cap or causing a shower of sparks in a flintlock.

The only safe way to put a gun into the half cock position is to first, lower the hammer/cock nearly to the fired position and then raise the hammer/cock directly to half cock.

Almost all of the newly made guns with double set triggers have a fly in the lock. It is needed to make the double set triggers fire the gun so be warned.
Never place the hammer of a gun that has double set triggers directly from full cock to half cock.

 

[flashpoint]

A word of caution. NEVER go from full cock directly to half cock if the lock has a fly in it.
The fly's job is to keep the sear from entering the half cock notch while the hammer is falling from the full cock position.

When the nose of the sear comes to the fly, the fly which sticks out above the outside of the tumbler causes the sear to jump over the half cock notch. The problem with this is, if the hammer or cock is lowered slowly, rather than jumping over the fly, the nose of the sear can hang up on it. This will cause the hammer/cock to stop, making it appear that the lock is in the half-cock position while, it is not.

If the sear has hung up on the fly, any sharp rap or impact to the gun can cause the sear nose to lose it's grip on the fly and the hammer/cock will fall to the fired condition, often firing the percussion cap or causing a shower of sparks in a flintlock.

The only safe way to put a gun into the half cock position is to first, lower the hammer/cock nearly to the fired position and then raise the hammer/cock directly to half cock.

Almost all of the newly made guns with double set triggers have a fly in the lock. It is needed to make the double set triggers fire the gun so be warned.
Never place the hammer of a gun that has double set triggers directly from full cock to half cock.

Thanks so much Zonie for that advice. I think I am going to have it looked at by a gunsmith familiar with Traditional guns. I'll show him what you outlined above. Flashpoint!

 

[Rudall]

What’s the situation in guns with double set triggers?

 

[Griz44Mag]

What’s the situation in guns with double set triggers?

Read Post #21 - The FLY.........

 

[Rudall]

Obviously I had already done that or I wouldn’t have known there was a problem and wouldn’t have asked the question. I do not know what a fly is and don’t want to take the lock off to have a look. Neither would I trust myself to come to the correct conclusion. I was entertaining the perhaps mistaken belief that it would be simple for someone to answer.

 

[Walkingeagle]

Most likely you have a fly (95% chance). Assume you do.
Walk

 

[Rudall]

Thank you.

 

[Grenadier1758]

For the most part there is no problem with having a fly in the tumbler. What you have with the fly in the tumbler is a feature. The feature is that when bringing the hammer up from fully down you have a stop at the half cock notch. You can leave the hammer with the sear engaged in the half cock notch for a sort of safety where the hammer won't fall. The hammer can then be pulled back into full cock and the firearm can be fired. If you want to lower the hammer from full cock, the fly will lift the sear nose and prevent the sear from entering the half cock notch. When you have a fly in the tumbler, you can only engage the half cock when pulling the hammer from fully down.

 

[SDSmlf]

Obviously I had already done that or I wouldn’t have known there was a problem and wouldn’t have asked the question. I do not know what a fly is and don’t want to take the lock off to have a look. Neither would I trust myself to come to the correct conclusion. I was entertaining the perhaps mistaken belief that it would be simple for someone to answer.

If you have a modern reproduction traditional muzzleloader with double set triggers, it is almost certain your lock will have a fly. What particular gun do you have? Difficult to guess what gun you might be asking about.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Rudall, the situation with double set triggers is that the action of release by the set trigger just barely pushes the nose of the sear out of the full cock notch. The sear spring keeps the nose of the sear riding on the tumbler. The fly will lift the sear over the half cock notch preventing the sear from being jammed into the half cock notch and preventing the breaking the nose of the sear or the half cock notch.

 

[Rudall]

Thanks all for the explanations.
I have a Pedersoli Le Page and Kuchenreuter pistols.
Come to think of it, I could look on the exploded diagrams on their website!
Simple!

 

[SDSmlf]

Thanks all for the explanations.
I have a Pedersoli Le Page and Kuchenreuter pistols.
Come to think of it, I could look on the exploded diagrams on their website!
Simple!

I know you said you didn’t want to disassemble your gun(s), but if you remove the lock for cleaning as many do after shooting, the ‘fly’ is visible. I do not know exactly what the locks in your pistols look like, but here is a photograph of a small Pedersoli rifle lock that is likely similar to yours. The fly is that small movable piece on the tumbler in the center of the red circle.

 

[Rudall]

Got it. I’ll take a look. Thank you very much.

 

[flashpoint]

If you have a modern reproduction traditional muzzleloader with double set triggers, it is almost certain your lock will have a fly. What particular gun do you have? Difficult to guess what gun you might be asking about.

SDS, I have a .45 T/C Seneca.

 

[flashpoint]

For the most part there is no problem with having a fly in the tumbler. What you have with the fly in the tumbler is a feature. The feature is that when bringing the hammer up from fully down you have a stop at the half cock notch. You can leave the hammer with the sear engaged in the half cock notch for a sort of safety where the hammer won't fall. The hammer can then be pulled back into full cock and the firearm can be fired. If you want to lower the hammer from full cock, the fly will lift the sear nose and prevent the sear from entering the half cock notch. When you have a fly in the tumbler, you can only engage the half cock when pulling the hammer from fully down.

Very clear. Thanks.

 

[troy2000]

Don’t really see how a hammer being too close to the nipple at half cock to put a cap on the nipple is a problem. If one is not capable or unsure of lowering a hammer from full to half cock, not sure I would want them to go from half to full cock.....

Not sure I buy that. There's nothing wrong with an extra layer of safety. It's quite possible for a normally careful person to get bumped while lowering the hammer, or sneeze in the middle of doing so, or just have cold stiff hands that make him momentarily clumsy.

 

[SDSmlf]

Not sure I buy that. There's nothing wrong with an extra layer of safety. It's quite possible for a normally careful person to get bumped while lowering the hammer, or sneeze in the middle of doing so, or just have cold stiff hands that make him momentarily clumsy.

You lose control of a hammer, be it a half inch, an inch or a sixteenth inch away from the percussion cap, you will have a hole where you don’t want one. Kind of like being a little bit pregnant. Realistically, you can rest the hammer on a percussion cap before you set the hammer to half cock. Unless there is an impact, nothing is going to happen while the hammer is on the cap. And even in the worst case, as long as gun safety rules are followed regarding where your muzzle is pointing, at most you will just need is fresh shorts, though it should never come to that. At least in my opinion.

 

[bud in pa]

I had a Thompson Center back in the90's. The hammer would hold at half cock, and there was room to cap it, although I did use a TDC capping device because of my fat fingers.

 

[BadDaditood]

I’m pretty sure that TC meant that as a hunting feature: if you can’t put a cap on at half cock it can’t come off when you’re boonie whumpin in the thick stuff.
At the range it’s kind of an annoying feature but I’ve learned to safely lower the hammer all the way down then back up to half cock.

 

[smoothshooter]

My Cabellas from the 80's is the same, hammer is just barely off the cap at 1/2 cock. Never gave it any thought.

inprefer to have the hammer just barely clear the nipple on half-cock.
Helps to keep the cap from being brushed off if the side of it gets rubbed hard against clothing or brush.