no round balls?

[ebiggs1]

Does anyone know Toby Bridges? He is a writer for North American Muzzleloader Hunting. He says we shouldn’t use patched round balls for hunting deer!
His quote from an article, “I don't care much for the round ball as a big game hunting projectile!”
I never heard of the guy but he supposedly has shot 300+ deer with muzzleloaders of different types. Since have never shot a deer, or any other animal with a muzzleloader, I have no right to contradict him. But I know some of you do have the authority to do so.
If it is OK with Claude I will post a link to his online article. Otherwise it is easy to find at North American Muzzleloader Hunting web site.

 

[Snow on the Roof]

Toby has been around for a long time. I remember him when he was employed by Turner Kirkland at Dixie Gun Works. If you read some of his earliest work he has always been a bit of a " progressive" to use the political term. He was putting scopes on black powder rifles in the 70's. As well he was promoting long range shooting with heavy loads and conicals long before the in-line crowd came to prominance. He has killed a lot of game and has a very deep level of experience to draw his opinions from. In many ways he is correct. If you want to shoot deer at 200 yards with a contemporary "muzzle loader" using 209 primers, non-black powder propellents pushing plastic wrapped bullets from polymer stocked Nikon bearing rifles at 2000 FPS...go for it. My question is why? A .270 is a more efficient killer, extending your range and raising the percentages of "scoring on a big one". Don't be fooled, Toby has taken his share of game with roundball. I don't know why he took the direction he did. Perhaps some unshared bad experience with traditional arms. Perhaps an inner personality quirk pushing him to "twik" with convention. Perhaps the lure of commercial compensation...only Toby can tell you.
Hunting with traditional blackpowder arms is not about maximizing ballistic efficency, trophy racks and commercial endorsements. We don't pick up a flintlock to improve our chances of killing a game animal. We choose the arms we use to raise the level of challenge. To bring us closer to a simpler time. A time when our forebearers struggled to survive in the harsh often cruel world of the early american wilderness. Our modern society promotes efficency, speed and a never ending hunger for success, to grasp and display the trappings {read: trophys} of success. In such a "progressive" world some of us find joy in the opportunity to revert, if only for a few hours, to a simpler, romanticised time. If you can appreciate this than you will learn that a traditional rifle burning black powder behind a patched roundball can be a very effective arm for hunting big game within its limitations.

John

 

[Walks with fire]

I read Toby's articles quite a bit and in his early years he used roundball just like everyone else. He has quite a bit of experience with muzzleloading but he does prefer the more modern approach and it shows in his articles.

Everyone has their own idea about what they want to use; I personally would not shoot anything other than flinters but then again that's just my opinion. Roundballs belong in flinters and take game just fine if you can shoot and stay realistic as far as range goes. I have 50 cals with various twist rates; I prefer to limit roundballs to under 80 yards and much prefer 60 and under. Center lung/heart shot deer even at 100 yards don't have much of a future. I have found roundballs under 60 put deer down quick; at longer ranges sometimes it requires a little recovery time. Bullet designs,firearms,powders have come a long way and Toby just likes the stuff so that's what he writes about

He's not against traditional rifles and balls but he just doesn't see them as the most effective or state of the art. You couldn't give me one of those darn #@lines. To each his own though.

 

[mazo kid]

As has been stated, Toby has been around for a while. IIRC, he used to write for either Muzzle Loader or Muzzleblasts magazine. I think he got in the pocket of the substitute powder/inline makers. Don't be fooled, a round ball, used within it's limitations, will very effectively take deer. And yes, even elk as my buddy will attest.

 

[ohio ramrod]

IMHO Toby doesns't " bite the hand that feeds you". When he worked with Dixie he wrote about and shot roundball. Now he writes for magazines that carry a lot of advertisements for modern @##$%line rifles. Round ball or hollow based mini's of the civil war era are very effective WITHIN THEIR RANGE. But the traditional gun makers don't advertise in the major magazines.

 

[nchawkeye]

Yep, I've got some old muzzleloading books where a young Toby is there with a long rifle and dead game in front, killed with a round ball...He's in it for the money, I'm not...

I've been killing deer with a flintlock and a round ball since the mid-70s...They are as effective as the hunter...Maybe old Toby just isn't a good enough hunter to step up to the challenge...

 

[nkbj]

Sports writers...
Couldn't care less what people are paid to say. Just means they'll do it for money.

 

[ebiggs1]

This is the figures from my TC manual. I would certainly think any load above 90 grains would be sufficient out to 100 yards.

50 cal
.490" Diameter
Lead Ball
175 Grain
Lead Ball

50 grs. FFG 1357 F.P.S 716 Ft. Lbs.
60 grs. FFG 1434 F.P.S. 799 Ft. Lbs.
70 grs. FFG 1643 F.P.S. 1050 Ft. Lbs.
80 grs. FFG 1838 F.P.S. 1313 Ft. Lbs.
90 grs. FFG 1950 F.P.S. 1478 Ft. Lbs.
100 grs. FFG 2052 F.P.S. 1637 Ft. Lbs.

54 cal
.530" Diameter
Lead Ball
230 Grain
Lead Ball

60 grs. FFG 1263 F.P.S. 815 Ft. Lbs.
70 grs. FFG 1469 F.P.S. 1102 Ft. Lbs.
80 grs. FFG 1654 F.P.S. 1397 Ft. Lbs.
90 grs. FFG 1761 F.P.S. 1584 Ft. Lbs.
100 grs. FFG 1855 F.P.S. 1758 Ft. Lbs.
110 grs. FFG 1931 F.P.S. 1905 Ft. Lbs.

I, like these replies, see no sense in long range shooting with flintlocks when other choices are available which would make better humane sense, also. There is a mystic and challenge to hunting the way it was. I am satisfied to stay in its limitations.

 

[Claude Mathis]

If it is OK with Claude I will post a link to his online article. Otherwise it is easy to find at North American Muzzleloader Hunting web site.

Please do not post links to anything related to Toby Bridges.

 

[Otter]

Please do not post links to anything related to Toby Bridges.

Thank you . . . I'd be tickled if no one mentioned his name here either - my BP goes up just when I see or hear his name.

 

[sniper68]

Thank you . . . I'd be tickled if no one mentioned his name here either - my BP goes up just when I see or hear his name.

Yea, I got my own problems when I hear that "piece of work's" name mentioned.

 

[lonehunter]

The only complaint i have ever gotten from use of roundballs was from deer, and they did not complain very long. :wink:

 

[roundball]

His track record indicates he's just a shill for the highest paying employer to push their particular product...switches positions on things every few years depending on who's paying him.
His opinions on matters have zero credibility and he preys on newcomers such as your self.

Ask a question at places like the MLF here and you'll get the true sense of the right answer by seeing the common theme in the majority of all the replies.

 

[nessmuk1953]

Ain't that the truth. I guess my eyes deceived me whenever I shot a deer with my 54 GPR. They have never run more than 30 yds. All were shot within 75 yds, but a PRB with 90 grains of FF seems pretty effective to me.

 

[John Wasmuth]

He prostitutes himslef to the *(lines and the BS that they peddel to people to get them to buy thier plastic stocked whizbangers.

 

[bwhoffman]

Toby is a salesman/pitch man/promoter.
His job is to build interest and following in an item or gimick.

for me, I change the channel, dont read those mags and walk away.

To each his own, but not for me.

I put him right down there with used car salemen and ambulance chasers!

 

[misher]

Took me a minute to realize you were talking about blood pressure and not black powder. :idunno:

 

[BrownBear]

He's making his living selling round ball alternatives. Beware anyone who's got to put down something thing to justify their own. Bullets spin, and so does the truth.

 

[ebiggs1]

As you wish. Ya just never know that's why I asked the true experts!
Thanx all,
EB

 

[Skychief]

IMHO, Bridges goes where the money leads him....plain and simple. Prb's aren't effective? Tell that to the dozens and dozens of big corn-fed Midwestern whitetails that have fallen to them for me!

I don't have an axe to grind with Bridges, but I will argue with him for his stances on a lot of traditional blackpowder issues. Wrong is wrong and Bridges doesn't mind lining his pockets however he can!