No Sights?

[nick_1]

But they are cheating the heck out of themselves and looking like fools for only having big targets up close. I do know a thing or two about shooting fast and accurately.

I could not beat those guys with single action pistols because I do not have the time in with that system and not training specifically for that type of shooting at the moment but back in the late eighty's and early 90s I did have very polished speed shooting skills with DA revolvers and 1911 etc. We had guys routinely hitting 5 six inch steel plates at 10 yrds in 2.3 seconds with DA revolvers. I had sub 3 second times with my 1911 and didn't suck too badly with my Ruger security six. We also used full power loads. At the big matches you got Chroneyed and penalized for under powered loads. We often had 35 yard head shots behind hostages but we also had had up close fast and dirty full size IPSC targets. Almost every match had at least a few 50 yrd targets. I like to think we were pretty well rounded shooters. All I ever see from the cowboy action crowd is up close really big targets and thats a shame. The wild west was full of exceptional marksmen but they have somehow gravitated to be one dimensional and only focused on speed rather than speed and accuracy and power.

 

[Bad Karma]

You can’t miss fast enough to win a gunfight.

 

[45D]

But they are cheating the heck out of themselves and looking like fools for only having big targets up close. I do know a thing or two about shooting fast and accurately. View attachment 318406View attachment 318407View attachment 318408I could not beat those guys with single action pistols because I do not have the time in with that system and not training specifically for that type of shooting at the moment but back in the late eighty's and early 90s I did have very polished speed shooting skills with DA revolvers and 1911 etc. We had guys routinely hitting 5 six inch steel plates at 10 yrds in 2.3 seconds with DA revolvers. I had sub 3 second times with my 1911 and didn't suck too badly with my Ruger security six. We also used full power loads. At the big matches you got Chroneyed and penalized for under powered loads. We often had 35 yard head shots behind hostages but we also had had up close fast and dirty full size IPSC targets. Almost every match had at least a few 50 yrd targets. I like to think we were pretty well rounded shooters. All I ever see from the cowboy action crowd is up close really big targets and thats a shame. The wild west was full of exceptional marksen but they have somehow gravitated to be one dimensional and only focused on speed rather than speed and accuracy and power.

I understand what you're saying but 30 + yrs is a long time and things "morph" as time goes on. They aren't "cheating themselves", they practice for what the game is and today, the game is speed. Fast draw is close range and speed . . . nobody says "silly".
Some of the cowboy shooters can empty a SA faster than you can shoot 3 shots semi-auto . . . Anybody would be a fool to think there's no "talent" if they were within normal "shoot out" distance from these folks.
It's the ones that can't that will point and laugh . . . a continuation of "high school" thinking.
They either don't have the money ( it ain't cheap) or the talent, both or the desire to put in the time so it's easy to point an laugh.
David Bradshaw couldn't come close to a top end cowboy shooter speed wise but he would run rings around an Alaskan shooting distance . . . I guarantee !!!

Let's just be a little respectful of those that do specifically what they do is all I'm saying. It's all easy till you do it . . .

Mike

 

[Smokerr]

Mike:

It leaves out the most important part of what shooting is all about and goes for a totally unreal skill set. So yea, I don't get it and to me it is as silly as sticking your electronic gun right up at the duck on the screen and saying you are good.

The In Range guy is working with a diverse shooting challenge that is a whole lot better.

I read about a guy whose career was studying Dante's Inferno. I hope he does not forget to breath (or maybe not).

Speed is not of any value if you can't hit what you are shooting at, and fast is not either. As has been noted, it was the guys who can hit what they shoot at regardless of the range that won the gun fights.

Supposedly Cow Boy shooint is based on Cow Boy shooting. Its morphed to where its totally something else but I would not call it shooting.

When I shot the PPC, the last stage was so close that you could not help but score solid. But it was only one stage out of 8. Shooting left handed was a real good one and as I am quasi ambidextrous (never had before though) I shot that state nicely as well.

Now it was not a true combat course where people were shooting back at you but it did test your core skill levels and with a timer it added pressure to use your two speed loaders in the right spots and the loose rounds in their spot and figure it out before you went onto the course.

Still happy I never had to see how I handled a real shootout, maybe if those Cow Poke shooters had someone shooting bean bags at them?

Or as a couyple of detectives I read about commented, well I was throwing bullets around and accomplishing nothing until I aimed and shot him.

Maybe the best all time one was Robert Culp in I Spy and looking at his 45 (S&W Auto Rim I believe) and commenting on he needed a bigger gun because he had not hit anyone.

But I don't do Tea ceremonies nor watch rocks grow so what do I know?

 

[nick_1]

Jerry Miculek can shoot a revolver just as fast as those guys and hit small targets with full power loads. . It can be done. They are cheating themselves. They have a tons of skill and have put the work in but they are in fact simply doing it wrong.

 

[45D]

Jerry Miculek can shoot a revolver just as fast as those guys and hit small targets with full power loads. . It can be done.

Of course he can and yes, it can be done. I never here about the monthly matches with thousands of participants that do that activity. . . . because there aren't any.

They are cheating themselves. They have a tons of skill and have put the work in but they are in fact simply doing it wrong.

They aren't cheating themselves (they're training to compete within their rules. ( you don't get to play by your own rules)). They're only doing it wrong from the way YOU think it should be done.
They win matches. They receive trophies, They receive belt buckles. They win State Championships, Area Championships. If they break the rules, they don't win these things. I know a lot of these people, they are nice folks and I build their revolvers!

Jerry gets free ammo, these folks pay for their own . . .

Mike

 

[Mike in FL]

Yes, "very silly" so silly that you and Smokerr couldn't come anywhere close to the top of the cas shooters.
It's all about the ability of the shooter, not the "inherent accuracy" of the revolver, otherwise it WOULD be at a greater distance.

You are right, 45D, that I could not do better than top CAS shooters. Never even attended an event like that and do not know the challenges CAS shooters face. I'd likey be beat by the BOTTOM most competitors. I don't know 'cause I don't care. I've no interest in competition, but I take nothing from those who excell at it it. They have my respect. I simply like guns, especially bp guns. In shooting endeavors I strive mainly for accuracy out of my replicas as well as modern.firwarms. When I say "silly," I mean to infer and insist 7 yards is in fact extremely silly in a gun review. Being able to place all rounds into a target resembling a man or animal at that distance proves nothing about any given firearm except that it goes off when the hammer falls. I hope to simply explain my comment earlier that pertained to the weapon, not the shooter unless he himself was trying to portray the virtues of whatever gun he was reviewing. Sorry if I wasn't clear or if I offended.

 

[Terrier]

Yes, 25 yards will certainly show our skill level. You ever see gun reviews wherein the writer says the gun will shoot a particular group at 7 yards? 7 yards.tells the readers nothing at all about the handgun's inherent accuracy. Sometimes explain that "This hun will shoot a 2" group at 7 yards, the distance most gun fights are settled." How very silly..

I remember hearing that the LAPD once did a study on officer involved shootings, and the large majority were in near total darkness and most were within something like 7 feet. Not yards. Feet. You can smell their breath within 7 feet and the moving target is about 20” x 30”.

I personally wouldn’t want to be that close in a gunfight. I’m a decent shot, so I like my chances better at a distance.

 

[nick_1]

I can tell from watching the videos that these guys and gals are dedicated, train hard and have tallent. Somehow the game they play went down a rabbit hole to the point where the targets are all stupidly big and it just looks silly. I have zero doubt that if they rescued the game and made the targets smaller that these guys/ gals would step up and get better. They absolutely could be fast as greased lightning And impressively accurate at the same time. I know full well the ammo thing. I put myself in the poor house shooting and reloading1k rounds a week while some of the folks I competed with had unlimited factory ammo. Thats the reason I quit competing. After 5 years of treating it like chasseing a dream I finally realized that out of the 14 thousand people competing in USPSA only about 6 of them were actually getting paid and I was not going to be one of those 6. Most of the few dozen or so sponsored shooters just got fee ammo and clothing, maybe help with entry fees but no real money.. Jerry Barnhart was the first million dollar man a year or so before I gave up.. I got free gunsmithing but that was about it ... I honestly don't know how anyone not heavily sponsored could afford to do this style of shooting with todays ammo prices?
I see the cowboy action game as being pretty much the same thing as IPSC with different rules and gear but the same challenges of shooting fast and hitting something. That requires an absolutely massive amount of training and ammo to maintain the skill set to win.

 

[45D]

You are right, 45D, that I could not do better than top CAS shooters. Never even attended an event like that and do not know the challenges CAS shooters face. I'd likey be beat by the BOTTOM most competitors. I don't know 'cause I don't care. I've no interest in competition, but I take nothing from those who excell at it it. They have my respect. I simply like guns, especially bp guns. In shooting endeavors I strive mainly for accuracy out of my replicas as well as modern.firwarms. When I say "silly," I mean to infer and insist 7 yards is in fact extremely silly in a gun review. Being able to place all rounds into a target resembling a man or animal at that distance proves nothing about any given firearm except that it goes off when the hammer falls. I hope to simply explain my comment earlier that pertained to the weapon, not the shooter unless he himself was trying to portray the virtues of whatever gun he was reviewing. Sorry if I wasn't clear or if I offended.

Gotcha. No, it's not a review. I tend to shoot minimum 10 yds (indoor ranges) and I couldn't hold a candle to any of the shooters I do work for. I just do what I do and enjoy it very much.

No offense here.

Mike

 

[45D]

I can tell from watching the videos that these guys and gals are dedicated, train hard and have tallent. Somehow the game they play went down a rabbit hole to the point where the targets are all stupidly big and it just looks silly. I have zero doubt that if they rescued the game and made the targets smaller that these guys/ gals would step up and get better. They absolutely could be fast as greased lightning And impressively accurate at the same time. I know full well the ammo thing. I put myself in the poor house shooting and reloading1k rounds a week while some of the folks I competed with had unlimited factory ammo. Thats the reason I quit competing. After 5 years of treating it like chasseing a dream I finally realized that out of the 14 thousand people competing in USPSA only about 6 of them were actually getting paid and I was not going to be one of those 6. Most of the few dozen or so sponsored shooters just got fee ammo and clothing, maybe help with entry fees but no real money.. Jerry Barnhart was the first million dollar man a year or so before I gave up.. I got free gunsmithing but that was about it ... I honestly don't know how anyone not heavily sponsored could afford to do this style of shooting with todays ammo prices?
I see the cowboy action game as being pretty much the same thing as IPSC with different rules and gear but the same challenges of shooting fast and hitting something. That requires an absolutely massive amount of training and ammo to maintain the skill set to win.

Totally get that !!
The Cowboy thing started in one direction and had to change as the majority crowd got older / or popularity waned or both. So targets got closer / bigger, speed got faster, loads got lighter for safety reasons. It just . . . changes continously.
So you DO understand the dynamics of "keeping it going" and the "stuff" folks put up with.
You're right, it's really all the same just with different firearms/ targets/ distances.
No disagreement here.

Mike

 

[stephenprops1]

Made specifically for cowboy shooters.

Some of those folks shoot 24 shots in less than 20 seconds. 5 ea from 2 revolvers ( one at a time or alternating with one in each hand), 10 from a leaver action and 4 from a double bbl. . . . and you hit a target with each shot . . . yap, absolutely no skills whatsoever . . .

Mike

There is a different skill set in Cowboy action shooting. I did it for about 10 years. It simulates a gun fight, where you don't have time to take a precisely aimed shot. In a gun fight, if you took the time to properly put your sights on an attacking desperado and slowly pull the trigger you would be dead before getting off the shot. Instead, you practice instinctive shooting. On the signal to go you draw, point, and fire. It takes a while to develop that skill. --- Our club shared a range with the local police and sheriff's office. A few times we were practicing at the same time the law officers were practicing. We all were using pistols, rifles, and shotguns. On many occasions we were out shooting the law offices and they even complimented us on that.

 

[stephenprops1]

Yes, 25 yards will certainly show our skill level. You ever see gun reviews wherein the writer says the gun will shoot a particular group at 7 yards? 7 yards.tells the readers nothing at all about the handgun's inherent accuracy. Sometimes explain that "This hun will shoot a 2" group at 7 yards, the distance most gun fights are settled." How very silly..

I believe it has been said many times that the average defense distance is about 7 yards. That is why concealed carry guns should be sighted in at that distance. --- My wife and I both practice at that distance with our concealed carry guns. --- By the way, I have a medal I won at a long-range rifle match, using a modern Remington 700, 30-06 rifle. So, I do practice different distances with different guns. I also do sporting clays too.

 

[nick_1]

you can say 7 yards all you want but that is still not a valid excuse to not have basic marksmanship skills. In fact if you are going to carry you should not have basic skills but advanced skills. Cowboy action is Not based on real gunfighting skills it's based on the fantasy of the old west. keeping that in mind they should re read a few Louie Lamour books . They would very quickly find out that absolutely none of those hero's would have been satisfied with being able to hit a 20x30 inch rectangle at 7 yards.

 

[stephenprops1]

you can say 7 yards all you want but that is still not a valid excuse to not have basic marksmanship skills. In fact if you are going to carry you should not have basic skills but advanced skills. Cowboy action is Not based on real gunfighting skills it's based on the fantasy of the old west. keeping that in mind they should re read a few Louie Lamour books . They would very quickly find out that absolutely none of those hero's would have been satisfied with being able to hit a 20x30 inch rectangle at 7 yards.

Apparently, you have not understood my response. I have advanced shooting skills. I started shooting with my father when I was 5 years old. I have competed in shooting matches with modern guns, muzzleloaders, and guns of the cowboy era. Different sports require different disciplines. You have obviously never done cowboy action shooting. You have a closed mind. That's too bad. Here's a picture of some of the medals I have won. The top two are second and third place medals for cowboy action shooting. There were 250 contestants using 2 pistols, a rifle, and a shotgun. I took the 3rd place there. The second place was with 100+ contestants. On the bottom left is 2 different 3rd place medals for Action Pistol, using 1911 style pistols. There were about 35 contestants in each of those matches. On the bottom right is my first-place medal for long range rifle. --- I also have a few awards for muzzleloading shooting too. In my last match I took 2nd place with my Pedersoli, Hawken 45 caliber rifle. I was very close to tying with first place. The muzzle loading match prior to that I tied for second place.

 

[45D]

you can say 7 yards all you want but that is still not a valid excuse to not have basic marksmanship skills. In fact if you are going to carry you should not have basic skills but advanced skills. Cowboy action is Not based on real gunfighting skills it's based on the fantasy of the old west. keeping that in mind they should re read a few Louie Lamour books . They would very quickly find out that absolutely none of those hero's would have been satisfied with being able to hit a 20x30 inch rectangle at 7 yards.

You're right, it's not done the way YOU would have it done. The problem is, you wouldn't have the participation that the "speed sport" it is today has. No body HAS to participate.

Mike

 

[nick_1]

Apparently you guys misunderstood my post. My big beef with the 7 yrd standard is for defensive pistol in general. Not just Cowboy action. Its a really dumb way to train if that is your only game. We trained all distances from the paper catching on fire to 50 yrd head shots. Our IPSC matches had shots from the paper catching on fire to 50 yrd head shots. We had no lack of participation and we were fast as heck. . If you want to spray name dropping I routinely shot on the same squad as Russ and Debbie James when he was captain of the US shooting team and Debbie was women's world Champion. I also have the dubious distinction of getting DQ'ed on the same stage as Jerry Miculek. I never said you should slow down. I did say you should get some smaller targets. Especially for rifles. You telling me that if god forbid you had to ocasionally shoot 8" steel at 10 to 25yrds you would all give up like a bunch of snowflakes? Seriously. When I only see those huge rectangles at spitting distance its just pathetic.
I like that tic tock cowboy in the black hat with the cardboard puppet. He may not be the champion of anything but at least he occasionally shoots at real targets.

 

[45D]

Apparently you guys misunderstood my post. My big beef with the 7 yrd standard is for defensive pistol in general. Not just Cowboy action. Its a really dumb way to train if that is your only game. We trained all distances from the paper catching on fire to 50 yrd head shots. Our IPSC matches had shots from the paper catching on fire to 50 yrd head shots. We had no lack of participation and we were fast as heck. . If you want to spray name dropping I routinely shot on the same squad as Russ and Debbie James when he was captain of the US shooting team and Debbie was women's world Champion. I also have the dubious distinction of getting DQ'ed on the same stage as Jerry Miculek. I never said you should slow down. I did say you should get some smaller targets. Especially for rifles. You telling me that if god forbid you had to ocasionally shoot 8" steel at 10 to 25yrds you would all give up like a bunch of snowflakes? Seriously. When I only see those huge rectangles at spitting distance its just pathetic.
I like that tic tock cowboy in the black hat with the cardboard puppet. He may not be the champion of anything but at least he occasionally shoots at real targets.

I think we understand pretty well at this point. For some reason you think every shooting sport is "training" for life situations . . . but it's not. It's a regulated shooting sport with it's own governing board with established rules and regulations. It is not a self defense exercise. That's pretty much it.
I'm sure some folks participate in self defense training classes separately but SASS events are not for self defense and were not designed to be that. Therefore, there's no need for 50yd head shots . . .
I think you just think Cowboy shooting is silly overall and that's fine. Nobody is forced to participate.

See, I think "curling" is silly but who am I to tell them how to play their established sport??

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Ok, I should have posted “No Target Sights”. My basic question is why I don’t see more ROA’s in my configuration?

My guess is because it was never meant to be a reproduction of any model in history but rather a match ready platform from the get go. I would imagine that customer feed back wanted a traditional sighted model as well once the brand became familiar to the Black powder community.

 

[M. De Land]

Nothing wrong with crazy, I have a bit of that from time to time. Here’s some info on your revolver.

Variants​

The Old Army was made in blued steel and stainless steel. The first series of revolvers, made between 1972 and 1981 (with serial numbers 140-000000 to 140-46841) were all blued. Beginning in 1982, stainless versions were produced as well, beginning with serial number 145-00000.[5] Originally fitted with adjustable sights, fixed-sight models were first offered in 1994. A 5-½ inch barrel was introduced in 2002. Some versions were sold with polymer ivory grips.[6] Barrels of Ruger Old Army revolvers made in 1976 were marked "MADE IN THE 200TH YEAR OF AMERICAN LIBERTY."[7]

I have one with the so marked barrel made in 1976 ! Looks terrible ,may as well have added the Gettysburg Address while they were at it!