Noob issues

[Golden Child]

Thanks all for the tips! And yes, that's a great pic. I feel like "minute of deer" is a pretty universally understood term. Not enough people use "minute of dumptruck".
So SDSmlf, you wet the patch that the roundball is sitting in, and put that against the powder? I'm not doubting, but it seems counter intuitive. (Cleaning patch and ball patch are both called patches... just wanna make sure I'm understanding correctly.) Do you do this while hunting too when it may be 8 hours til its shot? Or just at the range when it's seconds or minutes tops.

rafterrob: I'm not sure how I settled on brushing and swabbing with a dry patch, ill try the wet swab and ditch the brushing at the range.

Recurvebill: although It did come with a 70's paper can of Pyro RS, this is new stock in plastic cans. No date on it, but I bought it last year from midway. Stored in a dry environment in my gunroom. I'm hoping to be building my own bp by next year, but I'm certainly not gonna go down that tunnel until I can get some form of consistency.

Again acknowledging that bp and smokeless are miles apart: should my barrel be free floating after the underlug on the Hawken? I'm wondering if something swelled causing my wedge to fit tighter and maybe be putting pressure on the barrel somewhere.

Between running steel wool in my barrel, wet swab instead of dry swab between shots, checking torque on my rear sight and potentially wet patching my ball instead of lube patch, and floating if needed (I assume yes) I have one heck of a good start (and a fair bit of work ahead of me). Thanks again!

 

[Golden Child]

If you want the best advice , go to Idaho Lewis (might be on this site) for sure on Modern muzzle loaders .He has the answer to anything sidelock and demonstrates most all with video on **** tube The man shows what to do with TC s and especially TC Renegades (applies to Hawkens TOO) ! Round ball to conical /wads lubes and shoots to 1200 yds with a 1-48 twist , his round ball shooting ain't bad neither!!!!!!!!!! Lean from the best ,accuracy will follow so try looking up sidelocks on the site I suggested as lots of folks here know who I talking about . No brag just fact/Ed

I'm familiar with Idaho Lewis from a different forum I visited trying to find answers. Didn't realize he had his own site. I'll check him out. Thanks!

 

[SDSmlf]

So SDSmlf, you wet the patch that the roundball is sitting in, and put that against the powder? I'm not doubting, but it seems counter intuitive. (Cleaning patch and ball patch are both called patches... just wanna make sure I'm understanding correctly.) Do you do this while hunting too when it may be 8 hours til its shot? Or just at the range when it's seconds or minutes tops.

There are a lot of doors to open in this game, and a lot to see and find behind each door. Some people hunt with a wet patch, I do not, rather I use Mink Oil (a good source is Track of the Wolf). At the range I will shoot a patched roundball with the patch being wet if I want to shoot without swabbing. My hunting load using Mink Oil can easily be shot and loaded three times without swabbing, but things get tight if I try to shoot all day with it. I do use a dry felt wad between the wet patch and the powder even at the range for small caliber guns such as 32 caliber, as I find the 12 to 15 grain powder charge I use can be fouled a bit by wet patch. Not so much with larger calibers.

My suggestions were merely a way to get you up and going with a consistent load combination without a lot things to worry about. Patch and ball combination you found you could load. A wet patch to avoid need to swab. A single charge weigh of blackpowder that should ignite easier than Pyrodex and be accurate in your gun. They may not be perfect for hunting, but you should be able hit that garbage truck right from the start. Once you have confidence in the gun, you can work up your hunting load. You will always have an accurate baseline load (assuming I am correct and it is accurate and easy to load) to go back to. And for what it is worth, a lot of folks find success hunting with a patched .490” roundball over 65 to 70 grains of powder.

 

[jaegerstutzen]

If you want the best advice , go to Idaho Lewis (might be on this site) for sure on Modern muzzle loaders .He has the answer to anything sidelock and demonstrates most all with video on **** tube The man shows what to do with TC s and especially TC Renegades (applies to Hawkens TOO) ! Round ball to conical /wads lubes and shoots to 1200 yds with a 1-48 twist , his round ball shooting ain't bad neither!!!!!!!!!! Lean from the best ,accuracy will follow so try looking up sidelocks on the site I suggested as lots of folks here know who I talking about . No brag just fact/Ed

I shoot minies only, so can't help with round ball. Anyway the last time my rifle was acting squirlly my brother said "did you check the tang screw? Sure enough it was loose. Problem solved! Jaeger

 

[CapPopper]

Might try weighing your projectiles also anything more than a grain lighter than the heaviest one should be culled..... Also as has been mentioned I've experienced patchy accuracy with light loads.

 

[Phil Coffins]

Free your mind of the free floating the barrel, that’s a high power thing and does not apply to muzzle loaders.

 

[stikshooter]

I'm familiar with Idaho Lewis from a different forum I visited trying to find answers. Didn't realize he had his own site. I'll check him out. Thanks!

not his own the sister site to this one!/Ed

 

[mooman76]

One thing to keep in mind. The Lee REALS need to be fully filled out. Sometimes the bands are not filled out all the way and are kind of rounded and accuracy and consistency will suffer. The bands should look almost sharp.

 

[TCMonts]

I never had much luck with round ball or short conicals in my TC .50. They seem to like TC conicals in the 350 range, the regular Maxi or the Maxi Hunter with fairly stout loads of RS 100 to 110 grains. Also had good luck with 385 grain hollow base hollow points by Buffalo and Honady over 110 and 120 grains of RS but you don't want to start that heavy. I also don't think the depth of the rifling is deep enough to really grab a patch. the 1-48 twist may or may not work with round balls depending on how hard you drive them, usually light loads work better with them.

 

[hanshi]

As has already been mentioned only change one thing at a time. Be sure all screws are reasonably tightened and the wedge key a snug fit. Also are the sights on tight and not movable by hand? ScotchBright the bore and remove any trace of oil before shooting. Polish the muzzle crown to keep patches from tearing during seating. Mink oil for hunting and Hoppes #9 BP Lube are what I use and no bore wiping is ever needed during shooting sessions. A .490" ball and as thick a patch as can be seated with it seems to work in the T/C bores.

In my own .50 I shoot a .490" ball with a .023" canvas patch over 70 grains of 3F BP. In the usual T/C barrel a .010" undersize ball and thick patch, so the prb doesn't skip over the shallow rifling, with a decent lube (ditch the wax). These are just a few suggestions, some already mentioned, that you can try one at a time as you experiment.

 

[Golden Child]

There are a lot of doors to open in this game, and a lot to see and find behind each door. Some people hunt with a wet patch, I do not, rather I use Mink Oil (a good source is Track of the Wolf). At the range I will shoot a patched roundball with the patch being wet if I want to shoot without swabbing. My hunting load using Mink Oil can easily be shot and loaded three times without swabbing, but things get tight if I try to shoot all day with it. I do use a dry felt wad between the wet patch and the powder even at the range for small caliber guns such as 32 caliber, as I find the 12 to 15 grain powder charge I use can be fouled a bit by wet patch. Not so much with larger calibers.

My suggestions were merely a way to get you up and going with a consistent load combination without a lot things to worry about. Patch and ball combination you found you could load. A wet patch to avoid need to swab. A single charge weigh of blackpowder that should ignite easier than Pyrodex and be accurate in your gun. They may not be perfect for hunting, but you should be able hit that garbage truck right from the start. Once you have confidence in the gun, you can work up your hunting load. You will always have an accurate baseline load (assuming I am correct and it is accurate and easy to load) to go back to. And for what it is worth, a lot of folks find success hunting with a patched .490” roundball over 65 to 70 grains of powder.

Sounds good. Hopefully next year I can fill the freezer with garbage truck roasts, steaks, and sausage! Hit me up if you want some! Thanks for the reply.

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

Golden, what kind of twist does that TC have? I'm not very familiar with them at all.
BUT - my career, after Vietnam, was as a biologist, outdoors working with wetlands and wildlife, indoors getting permits for builders. Then trying my best to create wetlands better than those natural ones that had been destroyed. LOTS of experimentation - types of plants, slopes to shorelines, underwater topography. Worked from just south of DC, down to southern Argentina.
So, what does all that have to do with muzzle loading and accuracy?
Only change ONE thing at a time! Loads, try 5 shots at X grains, then 5 shots at X+5 grains, etc. Changed bullet weight or contact area? Go again, test bullet Y 5 times, then Y+ Z 5 times. Rinse and repeat. Polished and chamfered your muzzle? That may change POI, so go again with one type bullet and one weight of powder. Then another powder change. You get the picture.
Ours is a convoluted sport. Except for a few builders like TC, most muzzle loader builders have been creative in their builds. Just enjoy figuring things out can be a lot of fun!
That raccoon would surely make a great hat! And they cook up very tastily.

 

[Golden Child]

Golden, what kind of twist does that TC have? I'm not very familiar with them at all.
BUT - my career, after Vietnam, was as a biologist, outdoors working with wetlands and wildlife, indoors getting permits for builders. Then trying my best to create wetlands better than those natural ones that had been destroyed. LOTS of experimentation - types of plants, slopes to shorelines, underwater topography. Worked from just south of DC, down to southern Argentina.
So, what does all that have to do with muzzle loading and accuracy?
Only change ONE thing at a time! Loads, try 5 shots at X grains, then 5 shots at X+5 grains, etc. Changed bullet weight or contact area? Go again, test bullet Y 5 times, then Y+ Z 5 times. Rinse and repeat. Polished and chamfered your muzzle? That may change POI, so go again with one type bullet and one weight of powder. Then another powder change. You get the picture.
Ours is a convoluted sport. Except for a few builders like TC, most muzzle loader builders have been creative in their builds. Just enjoy figuring things out can be a lot of fun!
That raccoon would surely make a great hat! And they cook up very tastily.

It's a 1:48 twist. I used a few gallons of elbow grease this eve and ran some 000 steel wool on a 50 jag in and out a good 200 times. Every 20 passes or so I'd re-wrap with new wool. On one of them I got a little aggressive and had to really lean on my Lifetime Range Rod to get it in. When I pulled it out there was some lead on it in 1 spot (1 groove?) Thinking I found AN issue. By the sounds of it, my cleaning/loading method needs tweaking too. I'm well on my way to shooting minute of garbage truck! (Hopefully) If the mercury heads north of 20 degrees you can bet I'll be giving it a whirl.
You would think with all my rifle reloading I've done I would know to only change 1 thing at a time. I guess I somehow forgot that when it comes to BP. I'm also learning quickly that I need to take notes on something other than a cleaning patch. I got a stack of notes, velocities, and group sizes, and no idea what the heck projectile I was shooting.
Did I mention I was a newbie? Thanks for the tip!

I noticed my Nipple is getting a little flat on the top. Could this somehow cause a hangfire? I'd lean toward no. But im batting 1000 at being wrong. Are the hotshots all they are hyped up to be? Recommendations?

 

[SDSmlf]

I noticed my Nipple is getting a little flat on the top. Could this somehow cause a hangfire? I'd lean toward no. But im batting 1000 at being wrong. Are the hotshots all they are hyped up to be? Recommendations?

A worn nipple as you describe may cause the percussion cap not to detonate when first struck by the hammer, with that first strike by the hammer fully seating cap, which then will detonate when struck a second time. A hangfire is a delay between the cap initially going off and the main charge going off. A Hotshot nipple may help igniting Pyrodex. You need a good nipple and a clean and clear fire channel.

 

[Grenadier1758]

You, @Golden Child, mentioned that your grandpa built this rifle. Based on the observation that he never shot this rifle; I am guessing that the hooked breech to barrel fit may not be perfect. Since you are using Pyrodex, that almost unnoticed but very corrosive fouling needs to be fully cleaned out. Shooting good groups one day, taking the rifle home, removing the barrel from the stock to clean and replacing the barrel into the hooked breech may not be consistent. Until the barrel gets located in the same place from shooting session to shooting session, there won't be accuracy on the target. As the hook in the barrel is installed in the breech tang, make sure the barrel is fully seated in the breech tang. You may need to use a soft dead blow hammer to tap the muzzle before the wedge is installed. Is there any indication of rubbing at the breech or wood that may interfere with the installation of the barrel?

You haven't fully described your cleaning regimen. What are you cleaning with and what kind of lubricant are you using to protect the barrel after cleaning? Are you cleaning any protective oils from the barrel before shooting? You should be cleaning the protective oils out with rubbing alcohol before shooting. Store the rifle muzzle down after cleaning to allow the protective oils to drain from the T/C chambered breech and flash channel.

The flattening of the nipple at the top is called mushrooming and can prevent a cap firing. It is a simple thing to use a file to remove just the expanded top of the nipple. Since you are using Pyrodex, a nipple designed to send more heat to the Pyrodex is a benefit. Hotshot, Spitfire or Red Hot are brands of nipples (1/4-28 thread) to replace the original nipple. It is possible that there may be some timing issues that you are not noticing, but is enough to allow the movement of the barrel on firing.

It also sounds as if you are using a fixed volume spout on a powder flask. Do get a good volumetric adjustable powder measure. Pyrodex is volume for volume interchangeable with that volume of black powder. Pour the measure of powder from the flask into the measure and only load from the measure.

You do want a moist patch for the ball. The moist patch will soften the fouling in the barrel. I know there isn't much apparent fouling when using Pyrodex, but the moist patch will make the loading easier and there shouldn't be so much liquid that the powder is fouled. When hunting, an oiled patch is better and a dry patch over the powder and then the lubricated patch with ball can be loaded.

Patches for cleaning are different that the patches used for wrapping a round ball. You want an absorbent patch for cleaning. I use patches made from baby diaper material or baby flannel. These are nice and soft and clean fouling from the grooves. You want a patch for the round ball to be tough to withstand the forces imparted during loading and firing. It should hold some lubricant to ease loading and soften fouling. For patching the round ball, material such as pillow ticking of 100% cotton is among the best options. Thickness of pillow ticking patches with the round ball of 0.490" should be about 0.015".

 

[necchi]

Recommendations?

Sure, if ya can wait till spring time,, Motley,, a feller from St Cloud could show up an lend a hand,
I seen a guy shoot a muzzle loader once, maybe I could help(?)

 

[Britsmoothy]

Free your mind of the free floating the barrel, that’s a high power thing and does not apply to muzzle loaders.

Yes it does apply! Only with a muzzleloader one has to make sure nothing can rattle against the barrel. The barrel does indeed vibrate and it needs to be consistent just the same as a barrel free floating.

 

[French Colonial]

" When I pulled it out there was some lead on it in 1 spot (1 groove?) Thinking I found AN issue "

Plug the nipple and fill the barrel with kroil and let it set overnight, next day any lead will come out on a tight patch and jag.

 

[stikshooter]

To remove lead and polish bore look up Lee Shavers bore treatment , leading /copper/ and most anything else is done gone and bore is polished ! Even new never shot barrels benefit from this treatment (IT WORKS) Ed

 

[Golden Child]

Sure, if ya can wait till spring time,, Motley,, a feller from St Cloud could show up an lend a hand,
I seen a guy shoot a muzzle loader once, maybe I could help(?)

The Wife and I are headed that way tonight! Gotta take her out for a meal at least twice a year to remind her why she chose me.
If I'm still struggling come spring time 1 of 2 things will happen.
1) barrel will be wrapped around a tree.
2) I'll take you up on that.
I'm hoping more for #2 than #1. Lol.