Nooooooooo penetration.....please help

[hhughh]

A few days before turkey season closed, I had my shot at a fine gobbler---sixteen steps, standing still, bald opening. Touched off my 12 ga fowler (load was 80 grs ffg, 120grs(volume) #7s. The turkey flew away............. The pattern, on paper, has always been excellent with that load, so I didn't trust it was a clean miss.......

Today, I decided to try the "tin can" test---I know, like I should have done about umm January.... Anyway, just made some bumps on a tin fruit can, so I upped the powder charge. I am now at 120 grs ffg, and not sure about going any higher. But from twenty steps, the shot still doesn't penetrate the can. What's going on here? We have a squirrel season in May here now, so if I can get some satisfaction with my loads, I can get it back out in the woods soon.

Thanks,
Hugh

 

[roundball]

A few days before turkey season closed, I had my shot at a fine gobbler---sixteen steps, standing still, bald opening. Touched off my 12 ga fowler (load was 80 grs ffg, 120grs(volume) #7s. The turkey flew away............. The pattern, on paper, has always been excellent with that load, so I didn't trust it was a clean miss.......

Today, I decided to try the "tin can" test---I know, like I should have done about umm January.... Anyway, just made some bumps on a tin fruit can, so I upped the powder charge. I am now at 120 grs ffg, and not sure about going any higher. But from twenty steps, the shot still doesn't penetrate the can. What's going on here? We have a squirrel season in May here now, so if I can get some satisfaction with my loads, I can get it back out in the woods soon.

Thanks,
Hugh

In my opinion, #7s are simply too light for turkey hunting...#6s are as light as I go but they penetrate a strong tuna can for me at 40yds out of a 20ga.

However, at only 20 steps with a 12o grns 2F seems like they should have penetrated at that close distance.

Wonder if you're getting a good tight gas seal and all the velocity out of your load that you should be getting...ie: what is your wad configuration...

 

[jtmattison]

I think the #7'S are too light also.

I'd go with #5 or #4.

#7's are good for quail, dove, and squirrel.

HD

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOu need to be using NO smaller than #6 shot. I recommend using #5 in order to have the pellet energy down range.

The rest probably has to do with how you are loading the gun. If the wads are NOT Tight, to the bore, you probably are Not getting the velocity you think. You have to actually measure the bore diameter on a smoothbore, and NOT RELY on whatever the manufacturer says the gauge is. If your bore is oversized, you probably need to go to the next larger sized wads to get a good gas seal. My 20 ga. is overbored, and I was not getting the correct velocity until I went to using 19 gauge wads. I saw an improvement in velocity of almost 250 fps at the muzzle changing the wads, alone!

I was more fortunate with my CVA DB shotgun kit gun, and can use standard 12 gauge wads in it. With Number 5 shot, I can take pheasants out of the air cleanly at 35 yards with my cylinder bore tubes. #6 would be marginal, and #7 1/2 shot would not do the job, unless I happened to put a pellet in the head, at that range.

So, check your bore, and buy the size wads for the bore, and not for the number put on the side of the barrel by the manufacturer. Then use larger shot. You will get your bird. For squirrels, you probably can do okay with #7 1/2 shots, if they are not further than about 60 feet up a tree. Use an ounce and a quarter of shot and your 3 dram load.

 

[Rancocas]

Ditto what the others said.
#7 or #7 1/2 are for dove and quail, much too light for turkey. Use #6,#5, or even #4 for turkey, pheasant, and squirrel. You might get by with #7 1/2 on rabbit.
IMHO :wink:

 

[jdixon]

A confirmation on the opinions here on shot size is that several states have regulations on shot size for turkey, often #6 bird shot is the smallest that is legal.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I don't even go with #7 or #7-1/2 for grouse! That's dove & skeet shot and, IMHO, way to light for turkey. It just doesn't carry and sheds energy too fast . . . as you have noted. It would not be legal in NY for turkey.

No. 5 is a good balance of pellet count and retained energy.

 

[hhughh]

Ok.....two answers to continue. Sorry if I didn't provide enough info to begin with. I use wasp/hornets nest for wadding, and get a good seal. I, too, agreed that the #7s seemed too light for turkeys, but, frankly every other load combination I tried--4s, 6s, changing ration of powder to lead, etc.--leaves patterns that just aren't going to get the job done for lack of pellets that would get in the head.

Keep the replies coming, please. This wasn't meant to be argumentative, just giving more info to get better opinions.

Thanks again,
Hugh

 

[paulvallandigham]

Then, reduce the powder charge to see if you don't improve the patterns. Using wasp nests without first putting in a good sealing OP wad is not going to give you a good gas seal.

Consider using Jim Rackham's system using only OS cards( .010" thick slick shirtback cardboard used mostly for keeping the shot in place). You use 6 os cards in place of a OP wad, then the shot load, then 2 os cards. Put off-center holes in each card, and align them in the barrel so that none of the holes line up with the one next to it. The four cards over the powder can be aligned so the holes are at 12, 3, 6, & 9 o'clock. The 2 OS cards put on top of the shot can be aligned so that the holes are at 12 & 6 o'clock. Run a greasy cleaning patch down the barrel after loading the OS cards on top of the shot, to lube the barrel. This allows the lead pellets to slide over the bore, rather than rub lead off it. It also keeps residue soft for cleaning after each shot.

When patterns are too wide, reduce the powder charge. Do it in 1/4 dram increments,( about 7 grains) to see if patterns begin to improve. Clean between shot when testing, as lead streaks in the bore DO ruin subsequent patterns. The lead allows gas to escape around the wads and cut the shot pellets, at the muzzle, blowing the patterns. Using OS cards only makes it easy to carry reloads in the field. You only need on type of wad or card in your gear. YOu can carry the greased cleaning patch to lube the barrel in a plastic bag, in a pocket, along with a hand towel to wipe your hands and fingers. Get loading data from the articles in Bob Spenser's website, Black Powder Notebook:
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html

His article at the top, and the one by V.M. Starr are some of the best information about shotgun loads you can find.

If you insist on refusing to acquire the correct wads, try using corn meal- about 50 grains in volume- as a filler, between the powder and your hornet's nest. I still recommend that you use an OS card, under the shot, and over that hornet's nest, so that there is a good, hard, clean surface pushing the shot out of the muzzle. That critical juncture at the muzzle, when the shot is released into the air, requires a wading that is ALWAYs square to the bore, so that all the lead pellets are pushed out evenly. Otherwise, you will get No pattern to speak of.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I have taken canada geese with 7s @ 25ish yards. It is up to it :wink: I would stuff a load of cards down the bore first if it where me.
120grn of fuel must of give you a good kick, if it didn't I recomend you check the seal.
BS. (Thats for Britsmoothy)

 

[Emet Huntsman]

I agree that #7 is too light -- good for dove and quail but not turkey, esp. because turkey feathers are thick and make great shot-proofing :wink: . #4 would probably be your best bet.
good hunting

 

[10 gauge]

I use #7 1/2 for doves #6s for quail and lead BB and #4 buck for turkey. I haven't lost a turkey yet with this load out to 40 yds.
#6 and #4 are great for close range head shots if you can guarantee that shot every time, but if you have to take running body shots, lead BB and #4 buck is the way to go. Plus if your calling turkey and a bobcat, fox, coyote or mt lion come into the call you know have the medicine in the gun to take care of business.

 

[oneeye]

7s are waaayyy too small for turkey. The smallest I use out of modern shotguns is 5s, and these are magnum loads with copper plated shot. I would try 4s out of your BP gun and see how they pattern. We cannot use anything larger than 4s here for turkeys.
Dan

 

[slowpokebr549]

Dude, I had the same problem with my 12 when I first got it. I don't know how many squirrels I shot and didnt kill along with two nice turkeys. All of the above advice about shot size is correct, but also consider switching to 3f black powder.It solved my problems immediately. Even with a super tight seal and big shot, I had to pack so much 2f in to get penetration that it blew the patterns. Take the work out of it and go to a faster powder.

 

[The Baron]

7's are a bit light for gobblers at the low velocities of blackpowder. Try #6, #5 or even #4 (assuming patterns are still dense).

Also, try a lighter shot charge. Those heavy charges of 2f are probably not burning completely and you are (obviously) not getting enough velocity. After about 90gr. powder charge, you are gaining very little for each increment in charge. Stick with an 80 - 90gr. powder charge, which IMHO is about optimum for turkeys, and mate it with about 90 - 100gr. (volume) shot load and see how you do. If patterns need to be tighter, try using 4 thin o/s cards on the charge, and eliminate the heavy wad you might be using.

For comparison, my 20ga. fowler with 80gr. 3f and 1 1/8oz. #6 has proven a very effective turkey killer, as was my 12ga. New Englander with 90gr. 2f and 1 1/4oz. #6. My self-imposed limit is 25 yards.

Let us know how you make out. :hatsoff:

 

[Rat Trapper]

:bull:

When I first starting getting into turkey hunting I read all the books I could get my hands on. Today I now know most of those authors didn't know jack about shooting turkeys. I have may people tell me #4's shoot best out of there gun, but they have not taken the time to count the pellets and most haven't patterned the gun. Once I started shooting paper I found #4's didn't offer me anything at the distance where they should help the pellet count was too thin. Up close you can kill a turkey with a head shot with 7 1/2's and even #8's. Granted you got to be close like inside 25 yards but it will work, cause I've done it. For all around turkey hunting I go with #6's most of the time and nothing bigger than #5's. This spring I killed my 51st turkey,( I often hunt more than one state) and have been with lots of other people when they filled their tag. Get close, shot 'em in the face and give 'em a ride in the truck.

 

[Stumpkiller]

In short range an ounce, or even 7/8 oz. of shot, is a deadly force.

This is a 160 lb fallow deer I took with #6 shot from a SxS 20 gauge while grouse hunting (I don't tolerate introduced species, especially now with the CWD threat, and it was on my land). I was on the back-side of a wild rose tangle 15 feet away and blinded it with the first shot then put the second in it's heart from six feet.

But it was an ugly killing and there was not much sport in it. I would not set out to hunt deer with #6 shot. Neither would I set out for turkey with #7-1/2.

PS - I reported it to the DEC and it turned out the fallow deer had escaped a farm eight miles away two years prior. About 20 square miles of woods between us. A bowhunter took one the year prior. Still two unaccounted for.

 

[10 gauge]

Thanks for the heads up, I'll make sure that none of my pets never wonder on your land. :shake:

 

[hhughh]

Ok...an update on where things stand. 90gr 2f; 4 OS cards; 90gr (volume) #6s; 1 OS card. VERY good pattern to about 25 steps, and penetrates about 100 pages of a wet phone book. I think I can be satisfied with this. What say ye?

Hugh

 

[paulvallandigham]

I would want to compare your 100 pages to the effect on a steel can, such as those used for selling brown beans, or tuna fish, but it sounds like you have a pretty good load. Aluminum cans, used for soda pop, just offer no resistance, and putting holes in aluminum cans doesn't tell you much of anything about your choice of shot, and load. 100 pages of a wet telephone book sounds like a lot of pages. You problem will only begin to occur when you go out to 35 yards or further. Then, you will wish you chose #5,or #4 shot, for better retention of pellet energy at those distance. Inside 30 yards, #6 shot should work well.