north west trade gun

[chuckcolas]

Howdy all! I just got my Northwest Trade gun from North Star West. .62 cal, 41 inch barrel. I love it. I have been experimenting with shot and my patterns are rather large. I was wondering if someone could tell me what is the average pattern size for say 25 yards? I use 80 grains of 2f, an overshot card, greased cushion wad, 80 grains of #6 shot, and an over shot card. My patterns have been about 30 inches wide. Is that typical? Lokking for some good advice, Thanks.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The width of the pattern may not vary much, but you can increase the number of pellets in the core 20 " groups by reducing that powder charge a bit. Try the same shot load with 70 and 75 grains. See how the pattern and pellet counts improve.

If you want to reduce the diameter of the pattern, there is only one way I know that MAY work in your gun, and that is to lube the barrel AFTER you seat the load in the barrel. That give the barrel a greased surface for the pellets to slide over, rather than rubbing and leaving flat sides to those outer pellets, and lead streaks in the barrel. The lead deposits ruin subsequent patterns. The flats cause the shot to drop out of the main charge after it leaves the barrel, and most of this shot will hit the ground before the load reaches 20 yards. Use harder, plated shot, and lube that barrel to keep the pellets round. The slower velocity also helps keep the pellets rounder. Round pellets are more likely to stay in the core pattern, rather than work out to the edges, and open up the pattern diameter.

Finally, remember that because you are not going to get the same high velocities achieved with smokeless powder loads, using black powder as a propellant, the way to get good energy out there to kill a bird is by increase the size of shot at least one number size. If you usually hunt using #6 shot, you will probably have better results with your BP smothbore if you shoot a similar load of #5 shot. At any target inside 30 yards, you need not worry if #6 or #5 shot is going to be needed to kill it. Either works fine. Its when you stretch the range beyond 30 yards that pellet energy becomes so much more important.

 

[chuckcolas]

Thanks a lot for the advice! I will try that this weekend.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

When you say your pattern is 30" wide, what exactly does that mean? If you are saying that 100% of your pellets are in a 30" circle at 25 yards, that would be an exceptionally good pattern for a cylinder bore. If you mean that most, say 75% are in 30" that would be typical, still pretty good for a cylinder bore. Most of us who shoot modern shotguns have never seen a pattern fired from a cylinder bore barrel with no choke at all, and thus it looks pretty poor compared to what we are accustomed to seeing from our shotguns. One of the realities we have to accept is that a cylinder bore is a 25 yard gun.
I can't agree with the suggestion to go with larger shot. Number six shot has enough penetration to kill pheasant size game to 35 or 40 yards and if your pattern limits you effective range to 25 yards then switching to larger pellets will only exacerbate the problem by thinning the pattern even more. Actually a change to 7 1/2 shot might be a better idea.

 

[nw_hunter]

I have to agree with Paul! I've been working on loads with my new 62 smoothie from GM, and Haven't been able to get a decent pattern with #6 shot.With #5 shot the pattern is more dense, and I'll try his theory on lubing the barrel before shooting.I would think penetration would improve also with the heavy shot.Might even give # 4's a whirl. Turkey season is just around the corner :grin:

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you use the same volume measure to throw a load of #4, or #5 shot, rather than #6 or # 7 1/2, the pellet COUNT per load is going to go down.

The nice advantage to shooting a ML smoothbore is that you can increase the AMOUNT of shot in the load to compensate for the lower pellet count, and that will help fill out the patterns. But that is another reason not to be using the " High Velocity " loads you are used to loading in a modern shotgun. The lower powder charge will let you shoot a heavier shot load without increasing pressures, or recoil much. If your smoothie has a 40+ inch barrel, you might even try using Fg powder in it, to further reduce chamber pressure and the kick that deforms the pellets when the load is first moved. In modern guns, we use the cushion wads to protect the shot as best we can, but the bottom 3 rows of shot in any shotcup tend to deform anyway because of the sudden kick given when the load is fired. Since we are not using shotcups in Traditional ML smoothies, we have to resort to other " tricks" to protect that pattern.

But, remember, that at 25 yards, the velocity of even #7 1/2 shot fired at Black Powder velocities of under 1100 fps MV, are more than sufficient to kill game birds. Its when we try to exceed 30 yards that pellet energy becomes a problem. AND, if you have a barrel that is jug choked, the choke will extend your patterns and range another 5-10 yards, easily, even using more powder. The hardest part for new MLers shooting BP smoothies to learn is that they are shooting basically a 25-30 yard gun when it has NO choke. Pass on the longer shots.

 

[Runner]

I had the same problem. A friend with a shop gave me a box of old Nitro wads made to use in paper shotgun shells. They are pretty close to .24 thick. That contained the gases better and I started getting better penetration on the target board but no help on the pattern. I went the long way around and never found the patterns I wanted. Someone posted an old saying. Something like, little powder, lots of lead, shoot far, kill dead. The answer is actually in there.
In a muzzleloading shotgun there is a balancing act that needs to be addressed. We need good velocity for clean kills and longer shots, yet at the same time we need good patterns.
My gun was easy to pin down and the differences in the patterns are dramatic. My gun likes a three to four loading of powder to shot. It is as simple as that. I use 60-80 for goofing around, 70-100 for a little more range, and 90-120 for turkeys.
Add a little more shot at a time until your pattern starts to fill in. Test for penetration at the load ratio your gun shoots best at. Some guns will give dramatic inmprovements in the pattern, but the speed is cut back so that you really gain little range. Somewhere in there is a best compromise for your gun.
Hope that helps!

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Paul, I just don't understand your thinking at all. You agree that a cylinder bore muzzleloader is limited to 25-30 yards max, and I concur with your thinking. You agree that #7 1/2 shot is adequate to that range and I concur with that also. So what is gained by running #5 shot?
If he is presently using 1 1/8 ounces of #6, that's about 253 pellets. With #5s he would have to go to 1 1/2 ounces to get 255 pellets. He could stick with his present 1 1/8 ounce load and get 393 pellets of 7 1/2, or he could even reduce the load to one ounce and still have 350 pellets of 7 1/2 size. For that mater I shoot a 32 gage with 3/4 ounce of 7 1/2 shot which give me 262 pellets. To get that same pellet count with #4s I'd have to load two full ounces and from a cylinder bore gun I'd got gain one yard of range because I'd still have the same pattern density.
Now it is true that most guns will pattern one size of shot better than another, not because one size is better but because one barrel may prefer one size over another. That is something which can be determined only by pattern testing and counting all those little bitty holes. But as a general rule, if your maximum effective range is limited by pattern density going to a larger shot size is going the wrong way.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Joe, I think we both understand the problems, and just come at it from different directions. I have killed pheasants at 50 yds with a lucky shot of #7 1/2 shot. A pellet or two hit the head and neck of the bird and dropped it. On the other hand, I have also killed pheasants further than that using #5 shot, and they drop like they were hit with an anvil.

For short range shooting, the only reason that the smaller shot works so well is because of the increase in pellet energy on target DUE TO more pellets in the pattern. You are correct. But you can get just as effective results using slightly fewer pellets, but of a larger size, because you only need ONE pellet to hit the game to kill it. If you look at the Lyman Shotshell Handbook, you will find that where One pellet of #5 shot delivers enough energy at 30 yards to kill your rabbit or pheasant, it takes Two #7 1/2 pellets on target to deliver similar energy at that yardage. We all have seen birds " Dusted " by light pellets at long yardage where other than a few feathers floating to the ground, the bird flies off, apparently unharmed.

I once hunted with 2 other men, and we were using #6, #5, and #4 shot in our guns respectively. A bird got up in standing corn in front of me, and I shot it with #6, but it was just veering to my left toward the guy next to me, so he shot it within a second with #5 shot. About the time the bird was hit hard with that shot, and flaired its wings, it was hit by a load of #4 shot because the guy on the far Left of me had gotten a bit ahead of us, and though it was coming into his safe Zone of Fire. Well, it was well hit and dead at about 35 yards with my load of #6. It was smashed with the #5 shot load, and heading to the ground. But when it was hit by those #4 pellets, it went slamming to the ground. If I recall, we made the #4 shot guy keep the bird. Then we had a long talk about keeping our line of march as we drove the fields, and respecting zones of fire. The only thing we learned from that experience was that all three of us were good enough shots to hit a flushing bird.

 

[ian45662]

I found this on caywoods website thought it may be helpfull http://www.caywoodguns.com/working_up_turkey_loads_for_opti.htm

 

[Capt. Jas.]

This issue always has and always will have two sides. A few field experiences will put one on either side of the fence but the truth of the matter is to find a happy medium.
The larger the shot-the less dense the pattern. The smaller the shot- the less down range energy. Shoot what your particular barrel likes to eat best, choose your shot for the game to be taken, know your range capacity for same.
A moving target does not receive the same pattern you see on a sheet of paper sitting still on a pattern board.

 

[chuckcolas]

Thanks again for all the info. For Coyote Joe, the answer to his question. I would say about75 -85% of the shot hit the 30 inch pattern. It sure sound like that is typical, and thats what I was wanting to know. I will play with it and get it all figured out. I don't have a modern shotgun, so I don't realy know what they are supposed to do compared to a 20 gauge smoothbore cylinder. I will say this, its a lot of fun toshoot it and figure this stuff out. Thanks a lot for all the help, Chuck

 

[tg]

That sounds like a fair pattern at 25 yds, looks like you won't have far to go to get the ideal load.Glad you enjoy the smoothbore those NW guns are a lot of fun.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Well I just don't trust fluke shots, those one pellet hits do sometimes kill but how many more only wound. I've seen pheasants and grouse fly away after being shot through the body with a .22 long rifle hollow point, no doubt to die but never to be recovered. Those fluke hits happen just often enough to keep people saying "I shoot fours and I dropped a bird stone dead at 60 yards". I prefer to hit small game with 3-5 pellets, three for quail or doves, five for pheasant, rabbit and duck. Thus hit I am assured the game will drop DOA. A full choke gun can drop game reliably at 50 yards with #5 shot but with a cylinder bore you simply won't have the pattern density to make use of the long range penetration of larger shot. A cylinder bore 12 gauge has about the same reliable killing range as a full choke .410 bore. With a cylinder bore you'd do much better to use 7 1/2 or nothing larger than #6 and simply hold fire when the range exceeds 30 yards. If that won't do for you then by all means get your gun jug choked and THEN shoot #5s.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I use the 3-5 pellet rule myself. That is why I will fire 1 1/4 oz. of #5 with a 2-2 1/2 dram load in my 20 ga.

 

[TANSTAAFL]

T'was an old English rule, "little powder, much shot, shoot far" works for me.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I sure would like to know who said that and when. :grin: I've never found any need to deviate from standard equal volume loads.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

An old English rule I am familiar with is

" The shot and powder well proportioned be, neither exceeding in quantity."

Mr. Markland, Pteryplegia 1727

 

[Robert Egler]

An old English rule I am familiar with is

" The shot and powder well proportioned be, neither exceeding in quantity."

Mr. Markland, Pteryplegia 1727

Ah, but the same poem says:

"One Third the well-turn'd Shot superior must
Arise, and overcome the nitrous Dust,.."

Which, while a bit flowery for our modern ears, says you can use up to 1/3 more shot than powder.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

AH, I am familiar with that excerpt as well. In that flowery comment that is hard to correctly interpret, he does not say you CAN but you MUST load 1/3 more shot. The context appears to be concerning shooting the woodcock.

The equal powder and shot quote comes form the portion where he is talking of shooting the hare.

He must be trying to tighten the pattern by adding a little more lead and opening up the center of the pattern by using equal amounts?


There was also a book on shooting done in the 1760s called The Art of Shooting Flying by thonmas Page or Paige. I have not seen it except for a small quote. Anyone familiar with it?