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NSW Chiefs Grade gun

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Bountyhunter said:
I just think that putting the lock on the other side is a rational solution to having the powder flash in your face.

I appreciat you alls comments.

Bill

I am not left handed, so I say this just as an observation. You probably don't really need to worry about shooting a right handed flint left handed. I know several lefies that shoot the right handed flint from the left side. They are not bothered by it at all and are very good shots. Probably just takes a little extra practice and concentration.
 
Well then, why don't all you right handed shooters buy left handed guns, and learn to shoot them? That would be a pleasant change for those of us who are left handed now, wouldn't it? And why would any right hand shooter complain? After all it probably only takes a little extra practice?
 
paulvallandigham said:
Well then, why don't all you right handed shooters buy left handed guns, and learn to shoot them? That would be a pleasant change for those of us who are left handed now, wouldn't it? And why would any right hand shooter complain? After all it probably only takes a little extra practice?

Because there weren't very many guns made left handed! I know of NO left handed american rifles. If ya wanna shoot left handed guns...go ahead. Just know that it ain't HC. What's wrong with that? Sheesh!!! :shake:
 
There is nothing at all wrong with historically correct guns, except your use of modern tools, steels, and wood to make them! You purposely skirt my proposition, since you cannot come up with a good argument facing the merits. The proposition is this: If as Noo Deer claims, shooting a right hand action gun is no problem for left handers, and only takes a " little extra practice and concentration", then why don't we just sell LH actions, and let all you RH shooters do that " Little extra practice and concentration to shoot as well??? Before I got my first LH rifle, I thought it wasn't much of a problem shooting RH guns, either. So what if that cheek piece is on the wrong side, or that fancy patch box tears up my face when I shoot that RH gun? If I learn to chew tobacco, that lump on the left side of the stock will simply counterbalance that lump in my right cheek while i take my shot, don't you know? And what the difference if that bolt handle is on the right side? I can must turn the butt of the gun 90 degrees to my left off my left shoulder, reach over the action and grab that bolt handle to eject a casing, and load a new round, then tilt the gun back up to vertical to fire the next shot. Pretty fast.

Then I got my LH guns. They fit. I don't have to do a little extra practicing or concentrate more. Just like RH shooters with RH guns, I have the benefit of the stock between my eyes and that flashpan. I can rest my cheek on a cheekpiece, and find out why that was invented. I can reach my LH bolt just like real people do.

And, better than that, I can hand my LH guns to you RH people to try to shoot, " Just as good ", so you find out why we want LH guns! Cause its just the same, isn't it? And my gun is no more non-HC than yours are. Sheesh !
 
There is nothing at all wrong with historically correct guns, except your use of modern tools, steels, and wood to make them! You purposely skirt my proposition, since you cannot come up with a good argument facing the merits. The proposition is this: If as Noo Deer claims, shooting a right hand action gun is no problem for left handers, and only takes a " little extra practice and concentration", then why don't we just sell LH actions, and let all you RH shooters do that " Little extra practice and concentration to shoot as well??? Before I got my first LH rifle, I thought it wasn't much of a problem shooting RH guns, either. So what if that cheek piece is on the wrong side, or that fancy patch box tears up my face when I shoot that RH gun? If I learn to chew tobacco, that lump on the left side of the stock will simply counterbalance that lump in my right cheek while i take my shot, don't you know? And whats the difference if that bolt handle is on the right side? I can turn the butt of the gun 90 degrees to my left off my left shoulder, reach over the action and grab that bolt handle to eject a casing, and load a new round, then tilt the gun back up to vertical to fire the next shot. Pretty fast.

Then I got my LH guns. They fit. I don't have to do a little extra practicing or concentrate more. Just like RH shooters with RH guns, I have the benefit of the stock between my eyes and that flashpan. I can rest my cheek on a cheekpiece, and find out why that was invented. I can reach my LH bolt just like real people do.

And, better than that, I can hand my LH guns to you RH people to try to shoot, " Just as good ", so you find out why we want LH guns! Cause its just the same, isn't it? And my gun is no more non-HC than yours are. Sheesh !
 
Back in the day, most youngsters who had a propensity to left-handedness were gently reprogrammed to the right side. This in many cases caused much consternation and emotional difficulties...Many became Democrats later in life! :rotf:
 
paulvallandigham said:
Well then, why don't all you right handed shooters buy left handed guns, and learn to shoot them? That would be a pleasant change for those of us who are left handed now, wouldn't it? And why would any right hand shooter complain? After all it probably only takes a little extra practice?
This is MIKE BROOKS not Mark BROOKS or MIKE ROBERTS . Just plain old Mike Brooks..... I built a left handed gun 25 years ago for my brother and shot it for several years. I didn't have the least bit of a problem with it. I shoot double barrel flint shot guns for skeet and hunting. I can't tell the difference wether the left lock or the right lock goes off. Why all the hostility?
I've personally seen and handled post 1800 original left hand longrifles, 1770's and later left hand english fowlers and 18th century left hand german rifles. There were very few left handed guns made back then , but they did exist. The main thing to keep in mind is they were rare as hen's teeth. Probably way less than 1 in 10,000.
The actual question here isn't the fact wether left handed guns in general existed, but left handed chief's grade guns intended for the Indian trade existed, which I don't think they did, there has been no archeological or written documentation to support it.
Now, if someone wants a left handed chiefs grade gun built I think they should do it ,but they should also keep in mind that that particular style of gun never actually existed in the past.
I don't know of any living history event in this country that wouldn't alow someone with a left handed gun of correct styling for the era to participate.
 
And another thing...... :yakyak: I built a left handed rifle with all hand forged mounts years ago for a fella. He eventually wanted to sell it so he could buy a fowler he had his eye on. If that gun would have been right handed I could have easily gotten $2800 for it. But, being left handed there were no buyers for it. It finally sold after two years for $1800. :shake:
That's something you fellows considering having left handed guns built should keep in mind, they are worth far lkess on the resale market. Sad, but true.... :(
 
Personally I find HC prudes entertaining.

I taught myself to sew so that I could make my own PC clothes. I work for a living so my free time is at a premium, consequently I use a sewing machine.
Once I had someone look down there nose at me because my clothes weren't hand sewn. :confused:

Personally I think it is the human predisposition to wanting to feel superior in some way.

Paul, you & your southpaw smokepoles are welcome at my fire anytime!
 
:hmm: Mmmmm....I'm not skirtin' any issues. You evidently have some issues about right handed historically correct guns. Like I said, if ya wanna shoot a left handed gun go ahead. Just know that it is NOT a historically correct gun. I ain't skirting this issue but you are. We can't change what was. I don't understand why you can't get this. They were rare if any at all were in existance,BUT, ....if ya just gotta have one GO FOR IT !!!!!Sheesh!!! :shake:
Do you think slinging hash on this thread is going to change the past or what is correct historically? :rotf:
Here Paul, I will say it again....If ya wanna shoot a lefty then shoot a lefty, just don't fool yerself into thinkin' it's a historically correct piece.
I hope this cleared up any misunderstanding my previous post may have caused. Maybe I didn't say it clear enough the first time.
Good luck and have fun,
Don
 
Bounty Hunter,
Back to your original post...if you do find some primary source material on left handed trade guns I would be interested in what you find. Or, if Matt provides you with it I would hope you will share it here. I am always open to primary source documentation as new research comes to light.
Thanks,
Don

:hatsoff:
 
"Personally I find HC prudes entertaining.'

My observations suggest that most of the prudes and rudes are on the other side of the fence trying make something that IS out of something that IS NOT. This thread started with a questioon of which part delt in the HC aspect odf a left handed trade gun, all the knowledgeble folks who chimed in with info on avalable docs were polite and informative and said go for it though it would not be documentable, the attitude has come from the other side, and in the world of replicas many period materials and methods are not required to be considered PC or HC this is a well known standard, so don't try to throw the modern steel and such into the pot to spoil the broth on the PC issue.
 
:rotf: Us "PC prudes" are always open to more knowledge and historical source material. Ain't it so TG?
 
though it would not be documentable
After reading this thread and several others over the last few weeks - I've been thinking about the terms PC and HC and whether they are truly indicative of the "point" to be made.
I submit that those of us interested in the history aspect of things (and all others too) should in fact use the term "HD" - historically doumentable - as it is really what we are saying.
As any of us who have studied the past for any length of time fully realize that it is documentation of WHO... WHEN.... WHERE....that is the deciding factor and that can change, sometimes, dramatically over time.......

An example: 30 years ago cotton was considered completely non-PC/HC for the late 18th Century and early 19th Century in America, yet continuing research has shown that it was indeed available and in larger amounts than here-to-fore thought....or as concerns this discusssion we can only really say is "that there are no existing or documented left hand American made NSW guns." Saying that there were "none" is an absolute statement that in fact may come back to bite one on the butt someday......as my professors beat into my head oh so many years ago - trying to prove a negative is an exercise in futility.....

So how about it? HD rather than HC/PC and maybe we could temper these discussions and keep them to the point, rather than having a pi$$ing contest every time the subject comes up, which gets tiresome and frustrating for all.

Besides for all you/us Harley Davidson fans that HD has a nice "ring" to it.......and I'd much rather be an "HD dude" than a "PC Prude"...... :thumbsup:

as always others mileage WILL vary..........
 
Cooner54 said:
:rotf: Us "PC prudes" are always open to more knowledge and historical source material. Ain't it so TG?

I would venture that you are not.

Over the last 10yrs we have learned more of our past than the preceding 100. Old maxims that were carved in stone have insofar as "This is how is was" have been proven to be not entirely correct.

To arbitrarily state "always or never" when discussing past practices at best means you have a closed mind & at worst are a fool.

Now onto this particular topic. Do I think that trade rifles were specifically manufactured in a left hand configuration? I genuinely doubt it.
Do I think left handed trade rifles existed? Without a doubt.
Some months ago I recall reading an article about an indian chief (the names & details escape me) that carried an Fusil de chasse fin. It was resplendent in tacks, beads & wraps.
Obviously said chief obtained this arm as booty. However by common definition of what a trade rifle is does this arm fit? I think so.

I toyed with the idea of digging up said article so that I could give exact references but decided against it. I have seen you brow beat other members by disagreeing with their references so honestly it isn't worth the effort...
 
It's just semantics. Often, when people who have studied a subject tirelessly use words like "always" or "never", they really mean "in every documented instance that I've found" or "in no documented instance that I've found". It does not mean they are closed minded and not interested in proof otherwise. In the case of Mike Brooks, Cooner and TG, I feel I know these people well enough to say that nothing could be further from the truth. These guys would be giddy with delight if someone were to post a picture of an original unaltered trade gun in left handed. What "PC prudes" Don't like, is someone with little to no research to back up their position argue shoulda, coulda woulda's. Years ago, I built a rifle mounted in german silver. I WISH, I had someone like these knowledgeable fellas to say, "you can build one if you like, but you know, they didn't have GS prior to 1830ish". The whole point to these forums IMO is to share information. I don't think anyone is trying to tell anyone else what they should do. Just helping people make informed decisions.

Cody

BTW HD has my vote :thumbsup:
 
Cody, you are right on target. You do indeed know Mike, TG, and I well enough to say what you have here stated. People who do not know us may think us "brow beaters". We are here to exchange information that is HD :) If it isn't HD it is just conjecture or hearsay. No one can make a educated decision on just hearsay or non HD opinion. Mike and I both have said in previous posts in this very thread that if anyone has the documentation for a left handed lock on a Trade gun that we would be very much interested in seeing it. And futhermore, we both stated that you can carry one if you want to. No Biggy with me or Mike. So Boomer, what's your sore all about?

If this muzzleloading forum is divided into eras then I would suppose that the people who subscribe here want real information on their chosen era. Especially when the initial posting suggest that informed opinions are wanted as far as what is HD and what is not. Left handed trade guns are not HD as to this date. If in the event some one has a trade gun that was made pre-1890 in left hand then please post the pics with the documentation as to its whereabouts. As I said, we are open to new documents that DO come to surface at times.
Respectfully submitted,
The Brow Beater :grin:
 
I don’t think it is a matter of semantics, rather perception.

While not new to this sport, I am new to this forum. As such I have no preconceived notions about anyone. I have simply been reading the threads & drawing my own conclusions of tone based on how the posts were made.

Granted this particular media is very dry, no wry grin over the fire to communicate true intent. If I have misjudged then I genuinely apologize.

Truth is, I don’t have a dog in this fight. I agree with ya’ll. What I took issue with is how the disagreement was presented.

Bob

HD Sounds like a winner :hatsoff:
 
Do I think left handed trade rifles existed? Without a doubt.
What makes you think so? Written documentation? An actual survinng left handed trade gun? Wishfull thinking?
Some months ago I recall reading an article about an indian chief (the names & details escape me) that carried an Fusil de chasse fin. It was resplendent in tacks, beads & wraps.
Obviously said chief obtained this arm as booty. However by common definition of what a trade rifle is does this arm fit? I think so.
A trade "rifle" indicates rifleing in the bore and manufactor intended for the indian trade. A "Fusil de chasse fin" May or may not have been intended for the indian trade and would have been smooth bored, not rifled. It may have been intended as a "gift" or "alliance" gun for important or high ranking french allied natives. Or, it may have come to north america with no intention of indian conection, depending how high of a grade of gun it was, and later fell into indian hands.
Are you indicating in your post this gun was left handed? If not the story is interesting but not relevant to the discussion of the existance of left handed trade guns.
I'm certainly not "brow beating" any one, I was sharing information. It gets mighty tiresome after spending 25 years in the study of 18th century guns to have to take a lot of manure over my willingness to share what documented evidence I've learned.
It seems these problems always crop up when the owners of "not quite right guns" try to justify their investment in a gun that never existed in history. One of those "if they would have had it they would have used it" sort of things
. A small dose of 18th century reality usually is quite disapointing in justifiying 'not quite right" equipment.
As I and the other "brow beaters" stated before if you want a left handed trade gun I sugest you have one, and be happy with it. It doesn't bother me a bit.
 
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