Odd lock

[WRussell]

Here's one I got recently. Who's seen a lock like this before, huh? :blah:

 

[TFoley]

Well, I never have.

Just thort I'd say it before everybody else did.

tac

 

[Erzulis boat]

The rear shape of the lockplate probably doesn't jibe with my first guess I suppose, but is it Spanish?

:hmm:

 

[Zonie]

The sear? (the arm that is coming forward, under the bridle and seems to go thru the sideplate forward of the tumbler) makes me think it may be a Dog Lock of some kind?

 

[robinghewitt]

The sear pivots at 90 degrees to the plate?

When you see quality like that on the inside you know you've got a good one :hatsoff:

 

[Zonie]

Robin: Darned if I know.
I'm just looking at the parts and trying to figure out how it might work.
One thought is, if the forward/backward part that is held in place with the screw at the rear was acting as a sear, and if it penetrated the lockplate forward of the tumbler, it could be made to protrude thru the plate and engage a notch or hole in the forward area of the cock.
Then, retracting it back into the plate would release the cock.

The part with the rod sticking out of it, located where the sear arm would usually go could be attached to a cam which sits under the "sear arm" so that when the rod was pushed forward (or backwards) the cam surface could cause the "sear arm" to move away from the sideplate (on the inside). This would cause anything sticking out the far side to retract back into the plate.

I guess to answer WRussell's question, No, I haven't.
Then to be shown to be ignorant of what it is and how it works, I will have to ask WRussell, So, how does it work?

 

[WRussell]

When I saw the on-line photo (an auction) I read the word Turkish and just gave it a glance.

When I went to the preview I saw the safety and sear sticking out through the lockplate and put an absentee bid on it. I got it. Gulp. So I popped the lock off and was surprised to see the bridle on the tumbler. But wait - the tumbler shaft doesn't come through, and there's only one screw holding the bridle on? Yep, it's a fake bridle :youcrazy:

You're mostly right, Zonie, the sear is a single piece, with that odd round arm sticking out to be pushed backward by a trigger pivoted way up high, like a wheellock. And isn't that an odd way to pivot the sear?

The far end of the sear moves the most, being farthest from the pivot, and that's the safety. Near the pivot, with little motion, is the sear, sticking out behind the cock. The cock has two hooks/tabs/thingies sticking out to engage the safety and sear respectively. The safety is the round bit in front of the cock (looking like an oddly placed lock screw in the on-line photo) and the sear is the rectangular bit sticking out behind the cock, and engaging the tab/ear on the cock.

Isn't that an odd duck? Since the stock needs patching anyway, I'm thinking of lengthening the barrel an inch or two just because I think it would look better, bluing it to make the inlay show up, and generally having fun with it.

Here it is on half-bent

The works from the bottom and from the top

 

[robinghewitt]

Before you butcher it could I have 30 minutes with a top view of that maker's stamp? :thumbsup:

 

[WRussell]

Sure. That's next. It's a little cruddy, so I'll try some gentle cleaning first, then some photos. I haven't had the barrel out of the stock yet either. Lots of chores today, but soon...

I have Neal's "Spanish Guns & Pistols", so I'll see if I can identify anything. So far I'm just going on the assumption ("assumption: the mother of all screw-ups") that the auction folks knew whereof they spoke.

 

[WRussell]

I'm still evading chores

Here are the barrel marks before cleaning (front=builder, back =city?)

Here is the barrel (the pin was quite free )
The wedding band goes all the way around.
Looks like twist steel :grin:

 

[WRussell]

Here are some more views of the marks, with different lighting, after scrubbing with a toothbrush and picking a bit with a wooden toothpick.

 

[WRussell]

Well, this is getting to be even more fun. Claude Blair's "pistols of the World" has a drawing of virtually this very lock, complete with fake tumbler bridle, described as "Spanish Miquelet Lock of Madrid Type".

Neal's "Spanish Guns & Pistols" has a listing (though not a mark) for "Joseph Deop", Ripoll, c.1810-1815

Kinda looks like maybe it's not Turkish, after all

 

[robinghewitt]

You may now butcher it :rotf:

 

[robinghewitt]

On the barrel, do we agree:-

MA?
VE?
CA?IS

can't find him

 

[WRussell]

I think Joseph Deop (the later one, who isn't represented in the marks in Neal's book) gave up making Ripoll guns after the French destroyed the arms industry there, and moved to Madrid, or at least started making Madrid locks. Coulda happened :grin: If so, he missed out on his own countrymen, during their Civil War, razing Ripoll to the ground, mining and blowing up the major buildings.

I'm guessing Joseph the younger was a lock maker, not a barrel maker, and used a recycled barrel.

Since it's not a Turkish knock-off, and the barrel is twist steel, I'm faced with restoring, not the fun of butchering. Still, I can take some liberties with splicing on a replacement for the missing forestock.

And I guess I'll brown the barrel to bring out the twist - and hope most of what's left of the silver or whatever inlay stays put.

I'm inclined to see the barrel marks as some kind of critter or symbol (but it could be MA, as you suggest) over VB over something that could be CADIZ??? And it looks like there might have been a crown on top.

I went through Neal's mark lists looking for the outer shape - sort of an hourglass - and drew a blank. The breechplug is noticably off-center. I'm guessing the barrel was not made by anyone who made his "mark" on history.

I'm assuming the marks you show came from Stockel. The marks in Neal's book look identical, so apparently came from the same source.

Thanks for the research.

The lock was certainly done well. Other than needing a little polishing on the frizzen toe/cam/gizzie-that-rubs-on-the-spring, it's in great shape.

 

[WRussell]

Here's a shot of the barrel marks after removing the rust. I burnished the high spots a bit. It's all clear now! :shake:

Come on, all you Spanish barrel experts! This should be an easy one :bull:

 

[robinghewitt]

I still can't make it out, ??NVE?CLIN perhaps?

Need that first letter :thumbsup:

 

[Mike Brooks]

That gun has nothing to do with Turkey. It is a Spanish gun as you've stated. The lock is quite common for Spanish guns of that time period.
If you're going to post cool stuff like this on the pistol board I'll check in more often than once every six months. Up till now it's been a wheel gun board.... :snore:
I'd leave that gun alone....No re brown on the barrel, and I be hesitant to add a forestock....unless you're really good at that sort of thing.

 

[WRussell]

If you're going to post cool stuff like this on the pistol board I'll check in more often than once every six months. Up till now it's been a wheel gun board....

Actually, I have a couple more posts coming up soon Wouldn't want those revolver heads to have all the fun here.

I'd leave that gun alone...

Well, it's going to get left alone for a while - I still have some lock work to do to finish up that Barbar blunderbuss we kicked around so thoroughly a while back, then the belt hook to finish up on the snaphaunce... and now I've got another project coming, which is another missing forestock situation... and an odd percussion pistol beastie, brought to my attention by the Feb. Man At Arms Magazine...

And then there's...

So many projects, so little time. I'm having way too much fun lately.

While we're on the subject - does anyone know if the Spanish barrels were ever/often/always browned originally?