Offhand vs. Rest Shots

[Vostok]

A funny thing happened to me at the range today. I recently browned my Lyman GP Hunter .54 and added a traditional elevator rear sight and traditional German silver front blade. So after 5 weeks of being snowbound on the weekends I took off to the range today.

Starting temperature was 23 degrees (but it was a dry cold so it only felt like...23 degrees!) I shoot pyrodex and was expecting the telltale hangtime because of the temperature. As a result I use it as a training tool to keep me honest on my follow-through.

After about 40 rounds at 50 and 100 yards (80 grns pyrodex, Lyman Great Plains 450 grain home cast bullets) off the rest, I was examining my groups. They were ok..lethal for Elk which is my primary game - but certainly not impressive for target shooting.

So I decided to do everything offhand from then on. I'll be darned if my offhand groups were about half the size of my rested groups. At first I thought I was just getting lucky, but after 10 then 15 shots and the group sizes were not opening up I became a believer.

Now the rifle certainly feels like it has a much better "hang" to it when I shoot it offhand, but certainly rested shots should be more accurate. The funny thing was, there was a guy from the biathlon club there shooting a really high end rifle at 50 yards. My groups offhand with the .54 were better than his with the .22 - he was a really good sport so we both got a laugh out of it.

Has anyone else noticed this effect with traditional styled rifles? I can only assume that the Hawken the GPH is styled after was designed to be shot from a horse or standing, and thus configured to shoot offhand rather than in the prone, or rested position.

I typically try to duplicate the off hand geometry of sights to eye when I am shooting rested, but I suppose that could have some effect as well. Not complaining about the success, just curious if others see the same thing duplicated in their shooting sessions as well.

Enjoy!

 

[AZ-Robert]

Yes, I've noticed the same effect when shooting off a "hard" rest. It happens with my MLs as well as my centerfires. Using a softer rest (more cushiony. or the sand not packed so tightly) or putting your hand on the rest, and the rifle on the hand, helps.

Non-scientifc, but my take is that there is a "bounce" when firing off a hard rest that causes those wider groups.

 

[davecampperry]

Try shooting a spring piston air rifle off a rest and you'll see 'bounce'. I shoot my Beeman R7 in the house in cold weather to 'keep my eye in' and can never get as good groups off the bench as I can off hand, and I am NOT a good shot. If you shoot a ML off the bench, it is vital to rest the rifle in the same place-use a piece of masking tape to mark the stock, and look every time.

 

[Deacon4]

Could it be that you're positioning the rifle on the rest in slightly different placements, causing it to pivot differently, barrel vibrations would vary, in recoil.
I'm no expert, but these items came to my old mind. I usually shoot better off of a rest, less movement, less rush to get off the shot, less wind movement against to barrel,etc.
Good luck and good shooting in the future!
Deacon

 

[BrownBear]

I've put a fair bit of "study" into this with a couple of GPRs and several others. A whole lot depends on the details of your front rest, whether it is hard or soft, flat or V, etc. In general terms a soft V is best, whether that's your hand resting on something else or a deep padded V reminiscent of those used by benchresters. I think it has a whole bunch to do with the comparatively narrow rounded forend on most MLs. It's simply harder to be consistent if the forend rest isn't a compatible shape.

One other thing I notice that you don't talk about: There's a substantial change in point of impact between a hard front rest and either a soft one or offhand. With all my rifles POI from a hard rest is a bunch lower than a soft rest, and especially lower than offhand shooting. Got to replace a front sight on a rifle because of that--- When I first started out I kept filing down the sight to bring the group up. Got it right, but when I finally stood up and shot offhand the groups were a mile high.

My routine now is to go ahead and use my regular forend rest, but put my forehand between it and the gun, basically holding the gun normally while resting the bottom of my hand on the rest. This requires raising the forend rest quite a bit. I barely rest my elbows on the table, instead bringing my belly or chest up to the table and using that contact to steady the rear of the rifle.

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOu will find that if you find a point on the stock of a gun that allows you to put it on the rest at the same place each time, your groups will shrink down to what you observed when shooting off-hand. Shooting those heavy loads is going to cause you considerable recoil pain to the shoulder, whether you want to admit it or not. I have fired hundreds of .45-70 rounds before starting in black powder, and shooting round ball was a definite relief.

My practice, since learning how to mount a lever action gun to get far better accuracy than the average gun writer will ever get, is to put the forend rest as close to the front of the trigger guard as possible, and just let the whole barrel and forestock hang out there in the wind. With the front of the trigger guard as my index, and with the forend rest so close to the chamber, I find that this interferes with the natural barrel vibrations less than if I arbitrarily pick some point on the fore stock to rest the gun. I know chunk gun shooters who rest the guns only at the muzzle of the gun, to get consistent pressure on the barrel and consistent small groups. Some will clamp a fixture on the barrel, like is used in slug gun competitions to insure that the gun is mounted to the rest in the same position each time.

If you don't take steps to allow for barrel harmonics, your groups will be wild, even with the best of loads. Most octagon barrels are thick enough to dampen barrel vibratons very well shooting Round Ball. However, the pressures and resulting vibrations cause by using a heavy charge behind a heavy conical bullet is going to make that barrel vibrate like a whip. Off-hand, much of the forces that creat the vibration in the barrel will be dampened between your two hands and shoulders. That is why you saw smaller groups shooting off-hand. That, and the fact that you had already shot 50 rounds off the bench rest, before you began shooting off-hand.

You might benefit from reading my article on controlling heavy recoiling guns.
[url] www.chuckhawks.com/controlling_heavy_recoil.htm[/url]

Good luck with the shooting.

 

[Vostok]

Paul, and everyone else so generous with your advice.

Your responses definitely got me thinking about some things. I am a former competitive shooter, and I recall discussions about barrel harmonics etc. and consistency in approach. So if I deconstruct my approach maybe I can help isolate what it was - beyond a curious fluke.

A few details about the set-up then some thoughts for next time.

The rest was provided by the range, and was the red plastic type that resemble a long triangle with descending shelves on each edge to give the shooter multiple elevations. I stabilized the rifle using several sandbags made out of old shot bags (the kind you get when you buy shot in bulk)and laid a half full sandbag across the top, so the forearm was on soft material.

I tried to be consistent on where I rested the gun, picking the first key estucheon as my reference point. The first key being the one closest to the lock. This was a somewhat arbitrary choice, but I wanted to stick close to the center of gravity. Because of the height of the table, I was able to lean against it from my bench such that the top edge touched my sternum. Again, only looking for consistency not necessarily extra support (leaning against the table was such a no-no when I used to compete I still have trouble doing it!).

All shots were taken with the set (light) trigger activated. I even was consistent on how many times I tapped the side of the lock to get the powder into the channel and how many times and with what pressure I rammed the bullet home, and religiously cleaning every three shots.

So for next time, based on your collective knowledge I think I am going to try to following:

1.) Make my own rest (shouldn't be too tough to do). Adjustable height and both a "V" and a soft flat surface. If it turns out cool I'll post pics.

2.) Rest the rifle as close to the trigger guard as possible. That way I leave as much of the barrel free to express its' harmonic without interference. Then try the opposite - resting as far out (maybe on the last thimble) to see if that has an effect.

3.) Try the push-pull stance written about in your article. My competition was all about really small bore Olympic shooting so very relaxed and virtually no recoil (with guns engineered precisely for harmonics etc.) Really crazy stances etc. I find myself slipping into these old habits when I shoot muzzleloader and forget it is an entirely different game. So I liked the idea of your novel approach.

4.) Lastly, after I geek out on all this stuff and see what happens, remember that I bought the rifle for hunting big game...old school style. So to train as I compete, shoot it off-hand and after I get it close on a bench, sight it in off-hand. Very rarely will I have the luxury of a rest and even then it is likely to be shooting sticks.

Thanks again for all the great advice, I'll follow-up with my results in a few weeks, once I get another hall pass to go to the range.

Regards,

 

[paulvallandigham]

i was hoping you might reconsider using Round Ball in that gun, as that is all you are going to need for hunting. Much of the problems you mentioned are directly related to using that large, heavy conical bullet. 450 grains is more than one ounce, and much heavier than the 405 grain cast bullets I shot in my dad's 1886 Springfield Trapdoor, .45-70.

 

[Vostok]

Paul;

I might try a roundball for the fun of it, but it is the fast twist barrel so I will lose accuracy through that route.

I know this is going to get some responses, but it is my personal choice and that just has to be ok with folks. Last year I shot a cow Elk at 52 yards offhand. It was a perfect shot - Lee REAL .50 Conical, and 90 grains of powder. It took a second shot and 2 miles of tracking to get her down for good. I felt undergunned and switched to the .54 barrel. I know roundball has better expansion coefficients than conical etc. But for such big game as Elk and the distances you need to be able to shoot them at, I just don't feel comfortable with roundball. The extra weight of the heavy conical and appropriate powder gives me greater comfort.

The folks I hunt with have been using .54 conicals on Elk for years with great reliability out to 100 yards. So I chalk that up to the price I have to pay for being born in the 20th century and making a living behind a desk and computer rather than living in the woods and being an incredible hunter.

For those folks who can reliably take down Elk at realistic hunting distances, :hatsoff: but that person is not me unfortunately.

As far as accuracy, I know I can keep my offhand groups out to out (OTO) to 2.5 inches at 50 yards, and ~ 5 inches OTO at 100 yards. That should be accurate enough for Elk, Deer, and the occasional Jackrabbit that gets in the way. The 80 grains of powder really is forgiving considering I started this whole process with 100 grains and worked my way down.

If I am ever out in IL I want to head to the range with you - all those guns you mentioned in your article are tops on my list of gotta shoot before I die. It also sounds like a great club of shooters as well. Tough to find that kind of set-up along the CO front range.

Thanks again for the advice and take care.

Regards,

 

[paulvallandigham]

You really need to reserve judgment on the lead round ball until you have done penetration testing. That Elk you shot and trailed for 2 miles doesn't sound like you put that ball or conical through her lungs, or heart. You cetainly did not hit her foreleg, either. Even with a round ball, in my .50, I try for a shot that will break a leg going into her hear/lung area, or break a leg as its going out the other side. That knocks them down and keeps them from running off while I reload. If I have hit the lungs, or any of the major blood vessels, all the while the deer( or elk) will be trying to run away, it will be bleeding profusely. As its blood pressure drops, oxygen will stop reaching its brain, and it will finally collapse and die.

As fast as I reload I have only been reloaded AND aiming my rifle at another deer, once, after shooting a deer and making a good hit. On that occasion, I did not break a leg, but did take both lungs and some of the major blood vessels just above the heart. I did break two ribs, one coming and one going. The near-side rib was just behind her elbow, and she kept stabbing herself on that broken rib as she transferred her weight while going down hill, causeing her to both flinch, and collapse and drag her right from foot. That slowed her considerably, as she tried to escape, and she only made it about 50 yds to the bottom of the ravine before she turned a circle and died. I used a large tree to rest my forehand against for that shot, and I am still convinced that if you can hit within a couple of inches of wear you aim, you are going to make meat with any round ball.

Use that .54, but try the round ball loads. I think you will shoot them more accurately, and 230 grains of lead makes not only a huge hole, but keeps on going. It will break an Elk's leg out to beyond 100 yds. If you will do some penetration testing, you will find that that huge slug will crash through a lot of medium, more than enough to completely penetrate an Elk at over 100 yds. Then, look at the diameter of the slug you dig out of your test medium. Not many animals are going very far with a whole as big as a silver dollar in their chest. The conicals just don't expand that much.

 

[spottedpony]

just my .02 on "sand" bags

ive found that rather than using sand, i fill my bags with rice, they stay firm but with a little more give to them. (i put the rice in one of those gallon sized baggies then into a shot bag or piece of "jeans" leg)

no matter if i'm sighting in/shooting my handguns, centerfires or black powder rifles i dont find any poi change when going from rests to offhand shooting

 

[Vostok]

Paul - For shooting roundballs out of a fast twist .54 GPR barrel what would be your recommendation be for ball size and and patch material and thickness?

Thanks,

 

[Vostok]

Spottedpony - Thanks for the advice on the rice. Any trouble with moisture?

Thanks,

 

[spottedpony]

Spottedpony - Thanks for the advice on the rice. Any trouble with moisture?

Thanks,

Styr,
ive found no problems with moisture, and thats one reason i used the zip lock, or baggie type bags first. they also help contain the rice should you tear a bag or havae a seam fail. my second reasoning for the plastic bag inside, i dont always store them under ideal conditions & sealing in the bag i feel helps eliminate a mouse problem that could exist. (garage aint the best place ya know? :grin: ) though i do keep several in my range box all the time, (a cheap wal mart ice chest) ive used the same bags as rests for probably 20 years now & never had to replace one.

another advantage ive found, while being firm, is they are lighter than sand, in an already heavy range box.
just experiment a little with the quantity to get the desired fill you want before sewing the bags closed.

when i'm at a bench that allows me to be only 2 bags high i use an H pattern with my bags, that is two bags together inline with the direction i'm shooting and the third laying across those (forming the crossbar of the H) or going 3 bags high the first two on the bottom across the width of the bench, followed by two inline with my target direction, and the top single bag crosswise again I also usually carry a 4x4 block in my box with one bag on top of that at times.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I don't own a .54 GPR. However, after reading this forum for months, it appears that most of them shoot well with a .530" diameter round ball, cast, or swaged, and a .015" thick cloth patch, using either Stumpy's Moose snot, as a lube, or Wonder lube for the patches.

The only way you can be sure about a gun is to use calipers, either the old fashioned scissor type, and a separate ruler, or micrometer, or a dial caliper, to measure the land ( bore ) diameter of your barrel, and then also the Groove diameter of the barrel. It helps in choosing the thickness of your cloth patch to know how deep the grooves are in each gun.

Lets assume that your bore is .540" in diameter. This will be distance from one land to the one opposite it. The normal practice is to reduce the size of the ball used by .010" of an inch, or, in this case, use a .530 ball.

Now lets assume that your gun has a groove diameter of .556", or .016" over bore diameter. Divide this in two, since there are two grooves opposite each other, and you have groove depth of .008" each. We know that cloth compresses, so just to be sure we will fill the grooves, with patching to seal off the gases behind the ball, we choose a patch that is .005" thick( .540- .530 = .010, then divided by two - .005" ) PLUS .008, or approx. .013" thick patching. Since .015" patches can be obtained commonly, from many sources, try those first. The ball itself will obturate, or expand on the charge being fired, and drive the cloth tightly into the grooves, so the .015" patch, lubed well, and centered around the ball, may just shoot very well.

If you can find some .013" thick patching, it would be worth trying, just to see if it improves the accuracy of the rifle, or makes this gun easier to load, without affecting the accuracy of the gun appreciably.

Vary the depth of rifling in the gun even a couple of thousandths of an inch, and you begin looking at a different thickness of patches. For instance, I had a Spanish Made .45 cal rifle, that had a bore diameter of about .451. However, the grooves were almost non-existnace, more scratches than cuts. I ended up using at first, .445" diameter balls, and a .005 patch. With FFFg powder, this provided to be too thin a patch to survive gas cutting, and burning the patches. So, I change the ball diameter to .440" and used a .010" patch, and that seemed to work better, survive gas blow-by, and avoid burning up. powder charge was 55 grains in a 25 inch barrel. The gun was very accurate at 50 yds. I only got to shoot it a couple of times at a 100 yd. range, and it was better than I could hold those rough sights at that range.

Modern rifle barrels are often cut with grooves that are a mere .003" deep, rarely more than .004" deep. They are designed to work with hard cast bullets, and copper jacketed bullets, not PRB< or soft lead conicals. It is the deep grooves that work best with PRB and paper patched bullets that were commonly used after the Civil War in target guns. The slug gun shooters at Friendship still use paper patched bullets, and watching them shoot tiny groups at long ranges is impressive, along with the confetti that can be seen as the cloud of smoke drifts away in the wind.

So, measure the lands and grooves of your gun, and not the bore diameter, and groove diameter when deciding what patch and ball combination you want to try. If you don't use the right thickness of patching in your gun, you will suffer blown patches aand cut conicals, and have lousy accuracy with the guns and loads, as many new shooters are reporting here in the past few months. With modern, American Made firearms, You can depend on a barrel marked with a caliber or cartridge designation to meet SAAMI specs for that cartridge. And the rifling will be the proper depth for the typical commercial ammunition available for that cartridge. With American made Muzzle loaders, there is great consistency. However, some American firms are selling guns that are made over seas, and consistency may or may not be there from one shipment to the next. You can buy your own caliper for less than $20.00. Buy one. Or if money is that tight, then borrow one from a machinist, to use to measure the bore and groove diameters. It won't take long, and any machinist you meet will have one or access to one. and, I have never met a machinist who is not interested in guns of one type or another. Just ask. You just might make a hunting buddy.

 

[Vostok]

Paul;

I will look into this, thank you very much for the articulate advice. Once again proving what a goldmine of info this forum is.

I will need to report back on my findings!

Thanks again!

 

[Vostok]

Spottedpony -

Thanks for the advice, I will need to try this out and see what results I get.

Thanks,

 

[Greenmtnboy]

Paul;

I might try a roundball for the fun of it, but it is the fast twist barrel so I will lose accuracy through that route.

I know this is going to get some responses, but it is my personal choice and that just has to be ok with folks. Last year I shot a cow Elk at 52 yards offhand. It was a perfect shot - Lee REAL .50 Conical, and 90 grains of powder. It took a second shot and 2 miles of tracking to get her down for good. I felt undergunned and switched to the .54 barrel. I know roundball has better expansion coefficients than conical etc. But for such big game as Elk and the distances you need to be able to shoot them at, I just don't feel comfortable with roundball. The extra weight of the heavy conical and appropriate powder gives me greater comfort.

The folks I hunt with have been using .54 conicals on Elk for years with great reliability out to 100 yards. So I chalk that up to the price I have to pay for being born in the 20th century and making a living behind a desk and computer rather than living in the woods and being an incredible hunter.



Regards,

howdy,
yes it is tough not living in the woods where you can shoot more often and I am sorry for you.
A couple things you want to consider about 54cal round ball and hunting.
First Paul is right about ball and patch, my friend shoots a GPR and I have found that because the rifle has shallow grooves you will need a thinner patch, try at least a .018 patch and check to see if with a hunting load they blow or not.
Second I shoot a 54 and love it. Every elk I have killed I doubled lunged and 50yrd is the furthest they went, I kill a elk every year. You will have to understand tho at close range 20 or 30 yrds with a hot hunting load, a ball traveling around 1840fps out of the barrel, that ball will!!! flatten right out. but as the distance grows between 70 and 100yrds the ball has slowed down enough so that on inpact the ball won't expand and usally will go straight through. This had happened to me time and time again.
Roundballs are very deadly, I realy don't want my ball to expand because .530 is a plenty big enough wound chanell and a lung shot elk won't go far. I perfer my ball to go straight through and give me two holes pumping blood for tracking. I also aim low just above the heart because a high lung shot will drain into the chest cavity and not leave a blood trail on a elk.
Three, this is the best advice I can give you, No you can't shoot as much as you would like but you can dry fire every night at a tack on the wall or a pic of your favorite game animal. Many times before a shooting comp I am shooting or benching other guns than my comp rifle so every night I drink tea and dry fire for a half hour. I have gone to comps never firing a shot before and won anyway.
I hope this help also the second best advice I can give, listen to Paul,John Hanuant, coyote Joe etc they have been at it for years.
:hatsoff:

 

[Blizzard of '93]

"drink tea and dry-fire" wow, remind me to never get to drinkin' whiskey with ya'!! :rotf:

 

[Vostok]

Green Mountain Boy;

Thanks for the reply! Yes while I have not had the chance to try what has been suggested yet, it clearly comes from a voice of experience. One of the great advantages of this forum :applause:

A note on your dry firing advice. I dry fire quite a bit, I'd like to say it is because I am trying to improve myself and my shooting abilities. But while that is part of it...I really just get a kick out of holding the rifle and pulling the trigger. Isn't that great!

Some advice to all on the dry firing piece. I have found that the plastic caps that go on a "Presta" type valve for a bicycle tire work best as a nipple cover so that you don't peen the nipple or damage the hammer. The "Presta" caps are the thinner type that the higher-end cycles use (mountain bike or road bike) Most bicycle stores will have some laying around. They are good for hundreds of shots.

I am going to make my monthly journey up to the muzzleloading shop here soon and see if I can pick up the righ patches and some balls to shoot.

I'll let you all know how it goes.

Thanks again for the great advice!