Old original? Help restoring.

[jimdgreat1]

Hello! This may be my first post. Have lurked for a while. Recently bought what I think is an original 40 caliber. Needs some help getting back to shooting condition. I'll start with some pictures.

 

[jimdgreat1]

 

[Col. Batguano]

Use a penetrating solution like a 50:50 mix of acetone and Automatic transmission fluid to break anything free you want to unscrew, like the nipple or the lock. Let it soak in there for a day or two before you try to loosen anything.

How is the bore? run a patch down it to feel how rough it is, and check for any tight or loose spots.

Steaming can lift dents.

 

[jimdgreat1]

Needs a nose cap. Just ordered one from Knobb mountain.

Breech plug and bolster were removed fairly easily. The bolster will tighten past were it should be. Bore looks good. Some wood repair and the nose cap should get her back to complete.

No markings anywhere on the barrel. Lock plate has a engraved scene but is hard to see.

What do I have here?

It could be a replica, but I'm guessing and hoping it is original.

 

[jimdgreat1]

Used kroil, let everything soak in for two days. I work on old single shots so taking old guns apart is a hobby of mine. May or may not try to clean up the wood much. The obvious split near the forend will need some work. Going to set up a fixture to hopefully repair the forend tonight.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Everything I see says 'original' to me. **** screw doesn't look original and you may be able to find a replacement...if not, leave it as is. The whole rifle can be clean but go slow and gentle....patina can't be painted back on! :wink: :thumbsup:

 

[54ball]

My thoughts...

Gingerly put her back together like she was and give it a place of honor. I might try to see if the lock would work but that's pretty much it.

Is it a priceless piece?...No but maybe one day.
Does it have a great deal of value?...Not really
Is it Special?...IMHO YES All of them that were made have been made. Even the best made replica/copy is still a copy. They are only original once.

It's just a plain old honest and unusual most likely Mid Western maybe New England made rifle.

I have seen many originals that were in such good shape I would have no problem shooting them.

I have seen some that were in such poor shape, that after a restoration, like getting the barrel lined and some wood replaced, I would have no problem shooting them.

This rifle IMHO is in too good of shape to restore and in too delicate of a condition to shoot as is. She's a display piece.

If you must restore it make sure it's done right. Have a professional inspect the barrel maybe reline it. :shake: Then there is the Drum and breech. Send the barrel to someone like Bobby Hoyt.

Remember, this rifle is an original it's not a Track of The Wolf Kit. Any parts replaced must be done with the utmost attention to detail. You are trying to restore not remanfacture.

Best Option IMHO... Use it as a pattern and build a copy with modern parts and Display both together.

No sight dovetail :hmm: I think she's a special critter that needs to be left as is.

 

[54ball]

You see parts are available to make a really convincing copy of that rifle. I think it would be fun and rewarding, the best of both worlds.

Man, I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record but I usually do not like later percussion era rifles, they are just not my thing but I really like that one and I can't quite explain why.
It's special. I hope maybe you can step back and see what I see. :hatsoff:

 

[jimdgreat1]

I appreciate your advice. Realized how my post must have been taken. By restore I meant no sanding, scrubing, or anything that would remove any patina. I should have used a better description. Sorry about that.

I did get the stock semi repaired last night. No epoxy will show. Used wax paper as a barrier between the stock and barrel. Filled the crack then used rubber tubing to hold the stock clamped. Works well to fix old wood like this. Will bed the nose cap when it gets here.
I'm hoping this nose cap will be close to what was original. Would appreciate any ideas on what would work better. I'll post pictures of some individual pieces later.
One unique thing on the double set triggers. There is no provision for releasing the **** without setting the release. Also thanks for pointing out the front sight. I thought that looked out of the ordinary.

 

[jimdgreat1]

Speaking of Bobby Hoyt, does anyone have contact info? I've tried calling a number that is his several times. Have a Springfield 1864 that needs relined. Could IM the info. Thanks.

 

[Pete G]

Chances are a commercial nose cap will not match the stock contour. It might be close enough, but if its not then it is pretty easy to make one. A brass door plate from Lowe's has a lot of inlays and nose caps in it.

 

[jimdgreat1]

I'll pick up some thick brass shim if nothing else.

Some pictures and observations.

A II mark without the top and bottom cross pieces on the sear. Only mark noticed.



Trigger group with no way to drop the **** without setting.

 

[jimdgreat1]

Somethings don't match. The barrel can't be original to the stock. There are extra pin holes in the stock where there are not blocks and one dovetail for a block where there is no stock pin hole. Realize blocks is not the proper term. The dovetail pieces where the pin goes through.

Also the tang does not fit well. Sticks up above the stock when the barrel is in. The screws have to pull down the tang into the slot. The main tang screw does not tie in to the trigger plate. There are three tang screws. All wood screws into the stock.

The trigger assembly has no means to hold it in place. Just fits by friction in the slot with the trigger guard over.

The pins also hold the barrel above the barrel channel. Needed to be drilled closer to the barrel. May have to redo some of this.

Also the lock has a bridle but no stub on the tumbler to fit the hole in the brindle. Might drill the tumbler for a brace... but realize this should be just put back together. Still could do that easily. The hole in the bridle is in the correct location.

No fly. No half **** to get in the way.

Is it common for the lock to have a bridle but no support for the tumbler sticking through?

Worked a bit more on the rifle tonight. Still pleased with my discovery. May have to buy a few more I've looked at on the gun show circuit.

This one came off armslist with another "Flobert" boys rifle. Have several replica muzzleloaders. This one will get a special place whether it is fired or not.

Thanks everyone.

 

[54ball]

Somethings don't match. The barrel can't be original to the stock. There are extra pin holes in the stock where there are not blocks and one dovetail for a block where there is no stock pin hole. Realize blocks is not the proper term. The dovetail pieces where the pin goes through.
That's called a barrel lug. Many times barrels were shortened requiring lugs to be moved or re cut and pinned. Also it is quite possible that the barrel and maybe the rest of the components were used on a earlier rifle. Rifles with used parts like that are called restocks.

Also the tang does not fit well. Sticks up above the stock when the barrel is in. The screws have to pull down the tang into the slot. The main tang screw does not tie in to the trigger plate. There are three tang screws. All wood screws into the stock.
It's common to find barrels simply secured with wood screws. A lot of the modern builders discourage this and I can understand why, but if done well it can last over 200years. It's just another method of securing a barrel.
Now the ill fit can be caused by wood shrinkage.

The trigger assembly has no means to hold it in place. Just fits by friction in the slot with the trigger guard over.

This is a feature I have seen before on one family of Southern rifles. The set trigger plate is secured into it's inlet by the triggerguard. Like the wood screws, it's just another method not real common today in modern builds.

The pins also hold the barrel above the barrel channel. Needed to be drilled closer to the barrel. May have to redo some of this.

They may have fit at one time... this could be shrinkage.

Also the lock has a bridle but no stub on the tumbler to fit the hole in the brindle. Might drill the tumbler for a brace... but realize this should be just put back together. Still could do that easily. The hole in the bridle is in the correct location.

No fly. No half **** to get in the way.

It's a feature you see sometimes with percussion era rifles. The trigger has to be set for it to hold full ****. It was common back then for them to carry the rifle with the hammer resting on the capped nipple.

Is it common for the lock to have a bridle but no support for the tumbler sticking through?
Not sure...someone who knows about original Golcher locks may be able to tell you.

Worked a bit more on the rifle tonight. Still pleased with my discovery. May have to buy a few more I've looked at on the gun show circuit.

Each of these old rifles has a story to tell, this may be a restock, possibly from Leman type rifle. The ill fit may be due to shrinkage or it could be barrel does not match. I really doubt that though, the fit at the drum and lockplate looks really good.
Before I started to any real work or re work to it I would contact some real experts on these rifles. You can try the Kentucky Rifle Association, the Contemporary Longrifle Collectors or the American Longrifles site. Old finds like that are a passion to some of those fellows I'm sure they would be glad to help with any questions.

This one came off armslist with another "Flobert" boys rifle. Have several replica muzzleloaders. This one will get a special place whether it is fired or not.

Thanks everyone.