Old style deep rifling

[jd945043]

Are there any barrel makers who still cut the old style rifling in muzzleloader barrels.

 

[Notchy Bob]

There are a few custom barrel makers who are well versed in traditional rifling styles, and will cut the grooves to your specs. Hoyt and Burton come to mind, and I understand Colerain has taken custom orders. Rice offers at least a couple of different rifling options in their standard line-up.

As far as the depth of the grooves, I believe you can reach a point of diminishing returns. In an interview, the late Bill Large reported making a barrel with grooves .020" deep at the customer's request. Bill thought that was too deep, but the customer was adamant and got what he ordered.

I'm curious, though... What exactly did you have in mind?

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[jd945043]

Whenever I look through muzzleloader magazine I see the deep star-shaped rifling that was in the original muzzleloaders cuz you can see it on the muzzle and I always thought that was really neat so I would like to have one that looks like one of the old style I mean why not it worked for them for hundreds of years

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

What you're seeing at the muzzle is conning. The muzzle is tapered and the rifling is filed in deeper to match the taper. This was done so you can easily thumb start a ball. The rifling isn't that deep all the way down.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

There is so very much more than just deep rifling. Narrow square bottom deep groove rifling gets to the point that the patched ball needs to be mashed/deformed into the rifling just to seal the bore. If you don't get the bore sealed, you get blow-by which loses velocity and increases fouling. Wide square bottom rifling can be so wide that the lands are like dove tails protruding into the bore. Just because a few old barrels look a certain way, doesn't mean they were accurate. In fact probably the opposite. they didn't get wore down to the point that the bore was re rifled. Much has been touted about round bottom rifling grooves and they do not have the problematic square corners for a patched ball to fill or to accumulate fouling. The problem is that most makers use round cutters that are like a piece of chain saw file and make round grooves that are narrower than the lands.. One of the premier barrel makers of the transition of target muzzle loading rifles to target black powder cartridges and then smokeless, was a guy named Harry Pope. The man was a gunsmithing marvel. He developed a rifling that had very wide round cutters, the arc of the cutters was larger than the bore size. He so when he cut the rifling, the round edges of the cutter were deeper than the center of the groove. The grooves were 3 or 4 times wider than the lands. The result was a bore that looked like the patched ball was sliding on thin rails. This rifling proved itself over and over for decades on the national target match circuits. He even cut special barrels for the US military competition rifles in the 1920's and 1930's. He guaranteed 10 shot sub moa groups at 200 yds..

I believe you are mistaken when you say such rifling "worked for hundreds of years." German gunsmith's brought the concept of rifles to the new world. They made what they knew, but also changed and adapted to their new world. smaller caliber rifles, longer barrels, etc. The earlier German gun smiths were here about 1750. (The elder Angstadt opened his shop in Berks county in 1747) By 1820, the industrial revolution and more precise methods of machining led to most gun smiths purchasing barrels from barrel companies like Remington and locks from Europe by makers like Goulcher. About that same time or a decade later, there were vast ballistics studies going on all over the world. The Minnie ball was developed. Rifled muskets and horse pistols developed. Greener and Alexander Henry in England were making huge improvements in accuracy. Progressive rifling was developed. (deeper at the breach than at the muzzle). (Enfield used it) Accelerated/Gain twist rifling came along, even choked muzzles on rifles. One style of rifling did not last for "hundreds of years" by the first British Martini Henrys (1870's) the rifling used very narrow round topped lands, and a choke ahead of the chamber and another choke near the muzzle. From the pre colonial German gunsmiths to the first rifled muskets was approximately 70 yrs. in another 50 yrs after that muzzle loader rifles were obsolete. The time line alone for cutting edge accuracy changes does not permit even a one hundred year period.

 

[EC121]

Any rifling(square or radius) deeper than about .008" is just marketing.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

What you're seeing at the muzzle is conning. The muzzle is tapered and the rifling is filed in deeper to match the taper. This was done so you can easily thumb start a ball. The rifling isn't that deep all the way down.

I had a 54 caliber barrel by an unknown maker. Cut rifling was indeed 20 thousandths deep, with 8 or 10 grooves and lands slightly wider. This rifling was all the way to the breech plug. It was impossible to shoot without using an oversize ball, and mashing it into the rifling.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Any rifling(square or radius) deeper than about .008" is just marketing.

Nope most accurate barrels are closer to .010 or .012 depending on the width and shape of the grooves. H&H made special choked rifle barrels that had rifling that was like an oval laid on it's side with grooves 4 or 5 times wider than the lands. No square edges and grooves that were deeper along the lands than in the middle of the groove. Superb barrels. His partner, Mike Bell, If I recall correctly was winning matches all over the east coast with the barrels.

 

[smoothshooter]

Whenever I look through muzzleloader magazine I see the deep star-shaped rifling that was in the original muzzleloaders cuz you can see it on the muzzle and I always thought that was really neat so I would like to have one that looks like one of the old style I mean why not it worked for them for hundreds of years

That star shape you see is not rifling. The patched ball never comes into contact with it.
That star shape is put there by hand with needle files and does not actually go down the bore any distance.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

My Rice barrel is 12 thou deep grooves. If anything over 8 is a gimmick, Rice did a good job by making these barrels. Shoot out to 150 yards just fine.

 

[EC121]

His partner, Mike Bell, If I recall correctly was winning matches all over the east coast with the barrels.

Mike Bell would have won matches with any barrel.

 

[Flintandsteel]

Hugh Toenjes makes barrels with radius grooves barrels, over 25 thousandths deep. Provides proof targets with barrels with groups at 100yds you can cover with a quarter.
Very expensive…… it’s all about what you feed them.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Mike Bell would have won matches with any barrel.

That may be true. I was at a match once at Harrisburg Hunters and Anglers back around 1980 and people were such Dicks that they would intentionally shoot his target to try to disqualify his target. So he and I swapped targets. He would put mine up and I would put his up. two positions over. Then we shot out own targets. I would just take his down and turn it in. I had just started and Mike was giving me pointers, I had a lot to go before coming close to placing, so I didn't mind. Nearly every target had one or two "extra" holes. In fact my best score that day was when I only fired 3 shots and let the two that I didn't shoot be counted.

Some offhand matches were scored center of ball and some were highest ring broken. This meant at 25 yds a bigger ball had an advantage of breaking a higher score ring than the center. So Hoppy made some really thin 62 caliber barrels. Something like 7/8 or 15/16 ATF.s Made to fire a big ball with just enough powder to get it out there, maybe 30 grains. Mike never needed that advantage either, but he took it. It may have helped him edge out another shooter almost as good.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Lots of experts here.

 

[jd945043]

What you're seeing at the muzzle is conning. The muzzle is tapered and the rifling is filed in deeper to match the taper. This was done so you can easily thumb start a ball. The rifling isn't that deep all the way down.

That's fine because I love the look of it

 

[jd945043]

Guy's I was just asking because I want to have a rifle as authentic as possible. There's a distinction between the old look and our modern look

 

[jd945043]

And I am sorry for saying it was like that for hundreds of years.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Guy's I was just asking because I want to have a rifle as authentic as possible. There's a distinction between the old look and our modern look

I would agree with that, for the most part. There are a couple of builders (Eric Kettenburg comes to mind) who can make guns that really do seem old, but the genuine antiques seem to have some ineffable quality or "look" that makes them stand out.

There was nothing at all wrong with your question. It stimulated a good discussion.

I don't know how to post a link with the device I am using at the moment, but if you do web searches for "colerain barrels" and "Charles Burton barrels" and browse through their websites, you'll find a lot of options for rifling. You could probably order most anything you want.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[GBG]

Guy's I was just asking because I want to have a rifle as authentic as possible. There's a distinction between the old look and our modern look

And I am sorry for saying it was like that for hundreds of years.

Thank you for your questions and starting this thread. I've been in and out of muzzleloading for 50 years and thought I knew a little about rifling. I've picked up some facts and ideas here for further reading. I learn something practically every time I log onto TMF.

Many members here are 60 to 80 years old or more, including me. Don't let a bunch of "grumpy old men" disagreeing over a subject discourage you, and don't take anything personal.

Having different opinions is what "grumpy old men" do; and in those different opinions is contained a wealth of knowledge and experience you'll find nowhere else.

In my youth I learned more about modern firearms and hunting by reading Elmer Keith vs. Jack O'connor articles, then digging into their different opinions and ideas, than from any one book. There may be more than one way to skin a buck and still have backstraps for supper

 

[SDSmlf]

Any rifling(square or radius) deeper than about .008" is just marketing.

Would love to see your data or reference for this bit of information that deeper than .008” rifling is just marketing. I know you are not pulling our leg.

I personally have a number of Hoyt and Rice barrels with radius bottomed rifling in the .012” range that are some of the most remarkable roundball shooters I have ever owned. Accurate, easy to load and clean.